[NL2-NL10] QQ flop with a flush draw

    • xoshix33
      xoshix33
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2011 Posts: 348
      PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      BB: $1.33
      UTG: $7.29
      Hero (MP): $8.18
      CO: $1.74
      BTN: $7.88
      SB: $10.20

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q:heart: Q:club:

      UTG raises to $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.50

      Flop: ($1.57, 2 players) 4:heart: A:heart: T:heart:
      UTG checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($1.57, 2 players) 5:heart:
      UTG bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.35

      River: ($2.57, 2 players) 9:diamond:
      UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $2.00
      , fold

      Hero wins $3.23
  • 14 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello xoshix33,

      Most likely if I would be raising the turn then I would still raise a bit bigger while he could still have even worse hands. :) But what's your plan if he for example ships or raises back at you?

      Best Regards.
    • xoshix33
      xoshix33
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2011 Posts: 348
      if you meant if he would raise/ ship id be calling because having that king here is so rare i think calling him would be +EV.
      tho i think i shouldve Cbet the flop and just flatted the turn bet if one came.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Isn't a C-Bet in order on the flop. You could represent an A and you have a flush draw you could easily take the pot right there and even if he calls you have a very good draw.
    • xoshix33
      xoshix33
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2011 Posts: 348
      yeah i know i regreted that check as soon as i clicked it
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Isn't a C-Bet in order on the flop. You could represent an A and you have a flush draw you could easily take the pot right there and even if he calls you have a very good draw.
      Not really. I like the idea of checking behind there. Not many worse hands Call you anyways there. What you trying to make to achieve with the bet there? Make KK to fold?
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Isn't a C-Bet in order on the flop. You could represent an A and you have a flush draw you could easily take the pot right there and even if he calls you have a very good draw.
      Not really. I like the idea of checking behind there. Not many worse hands Call you anyways there. What you trying to make to achieve with the bet there? Make KK to fold?
      Ok, I maybe wrong but I think monotone flops are great to bet when you have a flush draw yourself. A flop like this can scare someone without a :heart: , I think even if he has a big pair cause even if we have a :heart: we have a lot of outs and that will make him start thinking whether a call is worth it.

      So I think when we bet here we definitely scare him with the board and if he does call we always have 9 outs on our side and we would have built the pot up when we hit our draw so its not only fold equity but also a thin value bet.

      And I don't think I really want worse hands to call here cause I'd want to take down the pot right here right now. I definitely want him to fold and KK has a lot of reasons to fold here, an A and so many :heart: s unless he has one himself cause then we're just fucked. :D
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Well, and what's your plan if he raises you? :) While you had showdown value you can't really continue if he does that. ;)
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by veriz
      Well, and what's your plan if he raises you? :) While you had showdown value you can't really continue if he does that. ;)
      Ok, get your point. What if we didn't have Q :heart: and some other Q. Then do you think we should go ahead and raise to make him fold? Then even if we do get raised we can get out of the hand without and problems.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      What I'm trying to ask is that is a monotone flop like this a good spot to bluff?
    • ilovemagic
      ilovemagic
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2011 Posts: 1,019
      Originally posted by xoshix33
      PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      BB: $1.33
      UTG: $7.29
      Hero (MP): $8.18
      CO: $1.74
      BTN: $7.88
      SB: $10.20

      SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

      Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q:heart: Q:club:

      UTG raises to $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.50

      Flop: ($1.57, 2 players) 4:heart: A:heart: T:heart:
      UTG checks, Hero checks

      Turn: ($1.57, 2 players) 5:heart:
      UTG bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.50, UTG calls $0.35

      River: ($2.57, 2 players) 9:diamond:
      UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $2.00
      , fold

      Hero wins $3.23
      the preflop: raise seems fine to me. nice sizing.
      the flop: you can definately cbet that. 60-65% would be sufficient, as you are adding value to the pot, and if he calls you are getting great odds to hit the 2nd nuts. if he min raises you, you are still getting good odds to call, and if he big raises you, you can be pretty sure your beat and can get out of dodge cheaper.
      the turn as played: he makes the pot 1.72. you now have the 2nd nuts, with possibly worse hands calling you down and maybe even raising you if you raise him bigger here...raise it bigger to at least ~$1 here for value and protection against sets and 2 pairs and lower flushes
      the river: optimally i think raising half pot size would be correct here. in this instance half pot size would be $1.70..a little less then your $2 raise and a little more callable imo.

      posted by maheepsanghari:
      And I don't think I really want worse hands to call here cause I'd want to take down the pot right here right now. I definitely want him to fold and KK has a lot of reasons to fold here, an A and so many Heart s unless he has one himself cause then we're just fucked. grin
      are you serious? why wouldnt you want a worse hand calling you? this is how we make money in poker is by having worse hands call and raise us. as long as we are folding when we are surely beat or have a very good chance of being beat right then and there, then i am never sad to have a worse hand call me....

      what i think you maybe meant by that is this:
      i wonder how much i can extract from a worse hand in this situation, did i bet too much or too little? what can i do differently next time.

      magic
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      What I'm trying to ask is that is a monotone flop like this a good spot to bluff?
      Not in 3bet pot where most likely you will only worse hands make to fold. :)
    • ilovemagic
      ilovemagic
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2011 Posts: 1,019
      good insight veriz. i didnt notice that until now. :f_p:
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      are you serious? why wouldnt you want a worse hand calling you? this is how we make money in poker is by having worse hands call and raise us. as long as we are folding when we are surely beat or have a very good chance of being beat right then and there, then i am never sad to have a worse hand call me....


      Well I was actually and answering Veriz's question "Not many worse hands Call you anyways there. What you trying to make to achieve with the bet there?"

      What I meant is that I felt that I wouldn't really care whether he has a worse hand or not and whether he'll call or not and that when I C-Bet and he folds I'm happy taking down the pot on the flop itself and if he does call, never mind I can still hit my flush. Right now on the flop my hand might not be the best so a C-Bet there would be like a semi-Bluff where I'd perhaps try to make better hands like KK or some other hands like AQo, JJ, TT etc fold. Anyway I won't be getting value from them after this flop so be it let them fold and let me take the pot here itself. Thats what I meant.

      Now, however, I agree with Veriz, if I C-Bet there I would have to fold and give up a hand with decent showdown value. So one shouldn't bet when they'll have to fold a hand like this, besides bet/fold would just turn our hand into a bluff and that'll totally suck.
    • ilovemagic
      ilovemagic
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.09.2011 Posts: 1,019
      agreed 100% man. great analysis everyone :)