icm question.

    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Ive been playing through the icm trainer but i dont get this situation....

      first hand:

      blindes are 200/400

      DEALER all in 5820
      SB all in 5930
      BB HERO (stack is 1350 after blinde) QQ

      ICM says only AA can call.... but why? with only 3 or 4 bb and no other players to move qq should be enough...

      second hand:
      blindes are 100/200

      MP2 fold
      MP3 fold
      CO all in 2500
      DEALER all in 2100
      HERO (stack is 2000 after blinde) QQ
      BB 2000 undecided

      This one says QQ+ is ok to call. For me I have more bb to loose and even an extra undecided player. What am I missing here?
  • 4 replies
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi, noz03,

      solid first post! Good questions asked.

      In order to analyze the situation properly though, I would ask you to provide us with some additional info about pay out strucutre/type of SnG in the first hand.


      Same applies for hand number 2 + please also type down mp2's, mp3's stack sizes! Looking forward for your answers.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Thanks for the compliments :) Glad it didnt turn out to be some obvious thing everyone except me knows. Actually it wasnt a real sng but taken from the ICM trainer I got from this site. although I have a lot of questions about how the payout structure effects this, as i usually play winner takes all games with my friends.

      Also i was with the understanding that if the players fold before you their stacks dont matter, is this not true? but for the record they both had 2200ish (or 11bb)

      Am really curious though why it is ok to go all in with qq on the second but not the first, when I thought have thought the exact opposite!
    • pzhon
      pzhon
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.06.2010 Posts: 1,151
      In a winner-takes-all structure you can call there with QQ, and with slightly weaker hands.

      In a 50-30-20 structure, the stacks of the players who have folded matter, both that the players exist and how close they are to busting out.

      When you are on the bubble, and to a lesser extent with 3 or 5 players, you may need to be quite risk-averse when overcalling, even when it appears that you are getting good pot odds. This is due to the tight range of the player calling in front of you plus what I call the multiway penalty. When two players are eliminated on the same hand, the larger stack places above the smaller stack. This means that if you overcall as the shortest stack on the bubble, you need to beat both players to make the money. The medium stack can lose and still make the money. Once the shortest stack is all-in, the medium stack is less risk-averse, but once the medium stack is all-in, the short stack is more risk-averse. So, there are common situations in which it is correct to fold KK instead of overcalling on the bubble with a short stack.
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Originally posted by noz03
      Thanks for the compliments :) Glad it didnt turn out to be some obvious thing everyone except me knows. Actually it wasnt a real sng but taken from the ICM trainer I got from this site. although I have a lot of questions about how the payout structure effects this, as i usually play winner takes all games with my friends.

      Also i was with the understanding that if the players fold before you their stacks dont matter, is this not true? but for the record they both had 2200ish (or 11bb)

      Am really curious though why it is ok to go all in with qq on the second but not the first, when I thought have thought the exact opposite!
      No worries! More than welcome to post your questions here. It helps all of us improve our knowledge.