[NL20-NL50] NL25sh TP Qkicker vs agro

    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.25/$0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)



      PFA is a 23/18 over 50 hands and his flop cbet is 80%(5hands), Turn cbet 100%(3 hands).


      Known players:
      MP3:
      $62.08
      CO:
      $113.59
      BU:
      $50.00
      SB (Hero):
      $68.94
      BB:
      $50.00
      MP2:
      $50.21


      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, K.
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $1.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.25, BB folds.

      Flop: ($3.5) 9, 8, 6 (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $2.50, Hero calls $2.50.

      Turn: ($8.5) K (2 players)
      Hero checks, MP3 bets $7.00, Hero folds, MP3 gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $8.5.
  • 17 replies
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      Why do you call flop if you fold on your perfect turn card? I think the K is the perfect card for your opponent to barrel so if I plan to float I call turn + prolly river as well.

      But I would personally not call flop. First of all you don't have many strong hands in your calling range so you look weak + you are weak = not a good combo. Also I would not expect my opponents to barrel mindlessly boards like this without any equity.

      If villain proves himself very aggro over bigger sample I'd try sometimes a c/r bluff with my backdoor potential but other than that just fold flop.
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      I agree that cold calling the flop was biggest mistake. Also plan to fold K turn is groas as well.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Preflop a 3bet could be taken into account. Only 50 hands so I think calling is better but if you find out he calls a lot with a weak range (medium SC and small Ax) you can easily 3bet.

      As played, it's a decent flop to c/r. It somewhat hits your range but more importantly, no hand in his opening range is very strong on that board. AA is a medium strength hand when facing action if not a weak hand. Best he can have is set so 9 combos of strong hands. The other reason it's a good board to make a move is because you have reasonable equity against any medium hand he might peel (I assume set and 89s will snap 3bet and almost never slowplay). You have 2 overcards and a BD FD + BD straight. FD and SD would be to second nuts and nuts. Overcards are high so you have equity any pair.

      As played you have to call turn but I ask you something more important: what's your plan on different turn cards and why?
    • doctorkgb
      doctorkgb
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2009 Posts: 1,263
      Actually, I'm afraid that I don't have any plan here. I should have folded flop without it.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello doctorkgb,

      Why do you want to float vs a guy who is very likely to 2nd barrel? And even if you float you still give up on turn with TP hand? Doesn't make sense, what did you hope to hit? :D It's a perfect card for him to use it as scare-card with his stats so far.

      With no plan, you should rather fold or 3bet it not play like that and fold turn. ;) The first plan of the hand starts from preflop.

      Best Regards.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by veriz
      With no plan, you should rather fold or 3bet it not play like that and fold turn. ;) The first plan of the hand starts from preflop.
      @doctorkgb: Don't do this! Yes, you can 3bet pre for value but because you call it doesn't mean you have to make a move on all medium connected flops with K high. For one thing you have implied odds when he flops worse with his QJ, KJ, QT type hands and you also have good bluffspots. There's no shame in folding K high if it's not +EV to continue in any way. At the end of the day, KQs is towards the bottom of your range for so it's NOT a big deal to fold it to a cbet on such a board. Thinking ahead is important but thinking folding is never part of the plan is oh! so wrong..
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      @"Don't do this!" - Why not? If he has such a horrible postflop plan then there is no other way to play for him, cause by calling he will just spew away money if he plays like this. Plus we don't have any information on the opponent how he re-acts to 3bets, we could as well just 3bet for value.

      If you even ain't fighting back those kind of boards where you have backdoors -> backdoors FD/SD+overcards when which boards are you fighting back? Or just hoping to hit? Which actually he did but still folded. So donation of money. Plus of course his CB is just to high to ever float here on the flop cause you will see most of the time CBs.

      Also if we think about his ranges and our ranges, then we can represent so much here, sets/2pairs/straight/pair+draw or whatsoever so vs his range perfect spot to Check/Raise and get rid of his wide range and might even make better hands to fold.

      I do agree that I would most of the time flat-call here but I would also have some kind of plan for postflop. :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by veriz
      If you even ain't fighting back those kind of boards where you have backdoors -> backdoors FD/SD+overcards when which boards are you fighting back? Or just hoping to hit? Which actually he did but still folded. So donation of money. Plus of course his CB is just to high to ever float here on the flop cause you will see most of the time CBs.

      Also if we think about his ranges and our ranges, then we can represent so much here, sets/2pairs/straight/pair+draw or whatsoever so vs his range perfect spot to Check/Raise and get rid of his wide range and might even make better hands to fold.
      What hands can we actually rep there? Flatting suited connectors vs MP is same level of burning money as flatting small pairs vs wide BU range in hopes you hit. SC are weak and we would try to play back with a weak range. Apart from that, all SC would have showdown value and wouldn't c/r the flop. That leaves us with 9 set combos to which we don't have any blockers to anyway.

      It's not about us representing a very strong range but it's attacking our opponent's weak range with equity. In this case, if Hero didn't think it's +EV to attack then folding flop is fine. You have K high, it's the dead bottom of your range and folding it is the best move if you don't know how to play it +EV on future streets.

      I'm not saying Hero played the hand well, I'm saying your advice to fold it preflop because he folded 986r type board is just ridiculous. Even if we don't fight back on the slighlty +EV boards to do so, it's probably still +EV to call and play back on better boards and get value on many boards where his range will hit 2nd best hand (villain's QJ, KJ, QT, KT, etc.).
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Huh? Why shouldn't we have SCs in our range? And why do you put Hero into exact your range what you think you would Call? Villain might not even know with what range Hero is calling, so doesn't really make sense.

      We can represent here massive range:
      TT/99/88/66/67/78/89/T9

      And what range does he continue? He will even have tough time with his whole range there to continue and for our reason it's a good spot to Check/Raise. I would expect him to continue ~30% of his range only and therefore our Check/Raise will work perfectly here, plus the 30% of the range can still even fold to turn 2nd barrel if we will gain some extra equity with our hand.

      And I wasn't talking about folding preflop but I said you must also have a plan for postflop not just Call, Check/Call, Check/Fold when TP hits.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by veriz
      Huh? Why shouldn't we have SCs in our range? And why do you put Hero into exact your range what you think you would Call? Villain might not even know with what range Hero is calling, so doesn't really make sense.

      We can represent here massive range:
      TT/99/88/66/67/78/89/T9

      And what range does he continue? He will even have tough time with his whole range there to continue and for our reason it's a good spot to Check/Raise. I would expect him to continue ~30% of his range only and therefore our Check/Raise will work perfectly here, plus the 30% of the range can still even fold to turn 2nd barrel if we will gain some extra equity with our hand.

      And I wasn't talking about folding preflop but I said you must also have a plan for postflop not just Call, Check/Call, Check/Fold when TP hits.
      You said we can rep a wide range which means we need SC in our range. We don't have them. First you say we can rep a wide value range and then that villain doesn't read our range.

      I've mentioned this is a good spot to c/r and why. I'm against your reasoning of not calling preflop but fold or 3bet it if we don't play back on such a board. Plan is good, but plan includes folding. This board is easily one to fold with K high since any float or raise will be marginally +EV if we play it right and any slip will make it well -EV.

      No idea why you repeat what I said about possibly making a c/r with our equity and that it's good because a hand like AA which is top of villain's range will instantly look mediocre at best. I disagreed only with the last part of your statement which was to NOT CALL if we don't plan to c/f this type of board.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      You said we can rep a wide range which means we need SC in our range. We don't have them. First you say we can rep a wide value range and then that villain doesn't read our range.

      Again, why do you think we can't have them? :D Does villain know that? No, just you assumed that he think so like you think.

      I've mentioned this is a good spot to c/r and why. I'm against your reasoning of not calling preflop but fold or 3bet it if we don't play back on such a board. Plan is good, but plan includes folding. This board is easily one to fold with K high since any float or raise will be marginally +EV if we play it right and any slip will make it well -EV.

      Then go again back and read what I wrote "With no plan". Your play definitely isn't going to be +EV either if you just go and play the hand OOP and hope to hit.

      No idea why you repeat what I said about possibly making a c/r with our equity and that it's good because a hand like AA which is top of villain's range will instantly look mediocre at best. I disagreed only with the last part of your statement which was to NOT CALL if we don't plan to c/f this type of board.

      You didn't say anything about it:
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      @doctorkgb: Don't do this! Yes, you can 3bet pre for value but because you call it doesn't mean you have to make a move on all medium connected flops with K high. For one thing you have implied odds when he flops worse with his QJ, KJ, QT type hands and you also have good bluffspots. There's no shame in folding K high if it's not +EV to continue in any way. At the end of the day, KQs is towards the bottom of your range for so it's NOT a big deal to fold it to a cbet on such a board. Thinking ahead is important but thinking folding is never part of the plan is oh! so wrong..
      So if you don't have anything to say, I am done here and would rather switch over to more important than arguing with you.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Preflop a 3bet could be taken into account. Only 50 hands so I think calling is better but if you find out he calls a lot with a weak range (medium SC and small Ax) you can easily 3bet.

      As played, it's a decent flop to c/r. It somewhat hits your range but more importantly, no hand in his opening range is very strong on that board. AA is a medium strength hand when facing action if not a weak hand. Best he can have is set so 9 combos of strong hands. The other reason it's a good board to make a move is because you have reasonable equity against any medium hand he might peel (I assume set and 89s will snap 3bet and almost never slowplay). You have 2 overcards and a BD FD + BD straight. FD and SD would be to second nuts and nuts. Overcards are high so you have equity any pair.

      As played you have to call turn but I ask you something more important: what's your plan on different turn cards and why?
      There you go!

      Looks to me you never read full posts and just take what you want to make yourself look good.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      That's my wrong that I don't read early evaluation and if I would even read all evaluations on all hands that would take me double time to evaluate the hand. Sorry for that.

      So what's the problem here if you agree about the Check/Raise?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by veriz
      With no plan, you should rather fold or 3bet it not play like that and fold turn. ;) The first plan of the hand starts from preflop.
      This is! I said planning is definitely a must BUT planning implies folding sometimes and folding on that board is perfectly fine if we can't play back profitably because we would make mistakes. I agreed c/r could well be +EV but if Hero doesn't know how to approach later streets folding is fine, since it could get very nasty if Hero doesn't know what he's doing.

      Furthermore, if you don't know how to play it when you call, 3betting and bloatting the pot is probably going to make it even harder to play. I never said Hero played the hand well, because he obviously didn't and he also knows it. When comparing calling preflop and folding that flop to folding preflop, it blows my mind you would suggest folding pre with a high suited connector like KQs.

      I understand that you can't read all comments before you give your opinion but when someone disagrees or asks you something you should probably read what comments they made before. :f_thumbsup:
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Then again! Go back and read correctly what I wrote about preflop! I wrote "If you don't have a plan then rather fold or 3bet! Didn't say anything that FOLD right away.

      Because if you don't even know what to do postflop like he didn't then how ever you going to play profitable the hand OOP + not know when to fight back + even folding TP hand vs aggressive opponent. With 3betting you at least find out how the opponent reacts:

      a) we know either he calls light 3bets or not
      b) we have a great hand to play postflop, even in 3bet pot, not always dominated but meanwhile could easily even dominate the range which call JT+/QTs+/QJo or whatsoever
      c) we build up our image on the table
      d) etc...

      So at least would be for him easy to play the hand and he would have the initiative preflop and could easily even Check/Fold such boards if he wants to or CB.
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      You are both saying the same thing. Veriz you are right that calling preflop and then playing the hand this way is massively -EV vs folding pre and Manu you are right that folding this pre is a bad play, but compared to playing it this way it is the right thing to do until Hero knows how to play it better.