bss chart is wrong ?

  • 14 replies
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hi roopopper

      Thank you very much for your concern!

      I have flagged this issue to the people who know more about this. It will be dealt with shortly.

      Thanks again!
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Hi roopopper

      Thank you very much for your concern!

      I have flagged this issue to the people who know more about this. It will be dealt with shortly.

      Thanks again!
      No worries Tweety, gald to be able to help out :f_biggrin:

      Will ps be renumerating me for all the loss I have incorporated by following the wrong starting hand chart? :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:

      Roo
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Originally posted by roopopper
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Hi roopopper

      Thank you very much for your concern!

      I have flagged this issue to the people who know more about this. It will be dealt with shortly.

      Thanks again!
      No worries Tweety, gald to be able to help out :f_biggrin:

      Will ps be renumerating me for all the loss I have incorporated by following the wrong starting hand chart? :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:

      Roo
      Sure and if we deduct the $$$ for all the hours ppl had to clean up the forum after a drunk night of you it's a Break even operation :f_biggrin:

      No hard feelings? :p
    • Waiboy
      Waiboy
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      Joined: 18.09.2008 Posts: 4,877
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Sure and if we deduct the $$$ for all the hours ppl had to clean up the forum after a drunk night of you it's a Break even operation :f_biggrin:
      Ooo, feel the burn. :f_eek:
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Originally posted by roopopper
      Originally posted by RasTweet
      Hi roopopper

      Thank you very much for your concern!

      I have flagged this issue to the people who know more about this. It will be dealt with shortly.

      Thanks again!
      No worries Tweety, gald to be able to help out :f_biggrin:

      Will ps be renumerating me for all the loss I have incorporated by following the wrong starting hand chart? :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:

      Roo
      Sure and if we deduct the $$$ for all the hours ppl had to clean up the forum after a drunk night of you it's a Break even operation :f_biggrin:

      No hard feelings? :p
      lool its a fair cop gov :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin: :f_biggrin:
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Originally posted by roopopper
      this chart is not right?
      bss 1st article
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/1534/1/

      download bss shc is not right

      This one

      http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/Strategy/pdf/ps_nl_bigstackstrategie_en.pdf

      its not the same as the one shown on this page ?

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/1535/1/

      its "players called" and not "one player called"

      This is a bit confusing

      Roo
      Hey Roo,


      Thanks for posting.

      I checked the links you posted and all are the same (so they all take you to the same .pdf file anyway) :f_confused:


      So from my point of view, these are all the same place you are linking to - and therefore cannot be different in any way, am I missing something?

      It's saying "One player called", because that's the most common situation you will encounter, and multi-way pots should force you to change your plan for the hand - therefore the starting hand chart wouldn't apply - if more than one player calls, your equity in the hand changes and so the starting hand chart guidelines are no longer accurate. If the chart said "players called", the question is then what to do Heads-Up, so it makes most sense to implement the most common situation in the chart in the first place.

      Keep in mind the chart is a guideline for when you start playing, you won't really need it for any extended period of time - it's only there to provide an overview of which hands we want to take certain actions with, as it's generally considered the most profitable that way.

      There are certain aspects of the chart I personally disagree with, such as MP limping 22-99 - instead I would prefer to open the pot for example with 66-99 and limp the rest. If you limp then it should be a limp call with a high pocket pair, limp/fold low pairs imo - but again for me I just like to take the initiative with the hands are that ahead pre-flop by default.

      I hope this answers your question and we hear from you soon!

      All the best
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by EuanM
      Originally posted by roopopper
      this chart is not right?
      bss 1st article
      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/1534/1/

      download bss shc is not right

      This one

      http://resources.pokerstrategy.com/Strategy/pdf/ps_nl_bigstackstrategie_en.pdf

      its not the same as the one shown on this page ?

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/1535/1/

      its "players called" and not "one player called"

      This is a bit confusing

      Roo
      Hey Roo,


      Thanks for posting.

      I checked the links you posted and all are the same (so they all take you to the same .pdf file anyway) :f_confused:


      So from my point of view, these are all the same place you are linking to - and therefore cannot be different in any way, am I missing something?

      Hi Euan
      Thanks for your reply :)

      you are correct that the links are the same, but the actual chart showing on the page of the last link I gave is different. When I asked in a recent coaching about which one to use the coach said use the players called chart.
      Its not the download pdf file its the actual page that is different.
      I agree that the dynamics of the game change when more than one player limps, but it makes it confusing about what to do in some of the scenarios if more than one player calls ie.. JJ QQ type hands that would be a raise if more than one player called ?
      (Also the pdf talks about the Ak scenario "someone called" does this mean; one player or multiplayers called? )

      Here is a screen shot of page to show what I mean as i'm terrible explaining things :)
      As you can see it says "players called" and not "one player called"

    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by EuanM


      There are certain aspects of the chart I personally disagree with, such as MP limping 22-99 - instead I would prefer to open the pot for example with 66-99 and limp the rest. If you limp then it should be a limp call with a high pocket pair, limp/fold low pairs imo - but again for me I just like to take the initiative with the hands are that ahead pre-flop by default.

      I like your thinking here Euan, going to give it a try this week :)
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,034
      Originally posted by roopopper
      Originally posted by EuanM


      There are certain aspects of the chart I personally disagree with, such as MP limping 22-99 - instead I would prefer to open the pot for example with 66-99 and limp the rest. If you limp then it should be a limp call with a high pocket pair, limp/fold low pairs imo - but again for me I just like to take the initiative with the hands are that ahead pre-flop by default.

      I like your thinking here Euan, going to give it a try this week :)
      Check out the Advance Open Raising article.
      Once you can handle the post-flop game sufficiently well, you can vary your opening ranges. But study the article carefully. It is easy to get too cocky and start opening too wide.

      For myself, If I am first in, I will open raise small pairs and raise over loose limpers, mostly because if you open raise, you can often take down the pot with a CBet on a good board, whereas if you limp, or call a raiser, that is much tougher.

      I boiled the chart in the article down into a single table, and it is my desktop wallpaper. Don't refer to it so much any more, but it is still there when I want it.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by roopopper
      Originally posted by EuanM


      There are certain aspects of the chart I personally disagree with, such as MP limping 22-99 - instead I would prefer to open the pot for example with 66-99 and limp the rest. If you limp then it should be a limp call with a high pocket pair, limp/fold low pairs imo - but again for me I just like to take the initiative with the hands are that ahead pre-flop by default.

      I like your thinking here Euan, going to give it a try this week :)
      Check out the Advance Open Raising article.
      Once you can handle the post-flop game sufficiently well, you can vary your opening ranges. But study the article carefully. It is easy to get too cocky and start opening too wide.

      For myself, If I am first in, I will open raise small pairs and raise over loose limpers, mostly because if you open raise, you can often take down the pot with a CBet on a good board, whereas if you limp, or call a raiser, that is much tougher.

      I boiled the chart in the article down into a single table, and it is my desktop wallpaper. Don't refer to it so much any more, but it is still there when I want it.
      Thanks for the link :f_thumbsup:

      After reading verneers new thread about improving turn play, I can see how useful the "advanced opening ranges" article is going to be for me.

      Because I have played so much mss in the past, my postflop play with bss is not very good, hence me scrutinizing every article from basic upwards to the finest detail and hoping to improve :)

      I should have probably entitled this thread "which bss chart is wrong?" as it was confusing to have two different ones showing in the basic articles.

      Roo
    • EuanM
      EuanM
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2011 Posts: 531
      Yes these are small variations in the charts - and I think in most cases with the ranges given, the action stays the same whether one or more players limp - we should not treat limpers passively as you know.

      Exactly what Vorpal mentions when you take the initiative you have it post-flop and it's more straightforward to continue your aggression - when it comes to the top hands mentioned in the starting hands chart, your aim is to open the pot preferably isolating limpers or with weak players in the blinds with all valuable holdings, so the more limpers the more dead money you have in the heads-up pot on average, because limp/folding is always the most common line with limpers.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,034
      Originally posted by roopopper
      After reading verneers new thread about improving turn play, I can see how useful the "advanced opening ranges" article is going to be for me.
      For my style, the AdvOR chart had some major pitfalls. I will now only open suited connectors first in from MP3 onward except in exceptional circumstances.
      However, I love getting into multi-way pots with them, since there is tons of dead money in there, and if you hit you can cash big.

      The Advanced Open Raising chart cost me a lot of money until I learned how to fold when a CBet bluff got 3Bet.
    • roopopper
      roopopper
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.12.2010 Posts: 4,289
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by roopopper
      After reading verneers new thread about improving turn play, I can see how useful the "advanced opening ranges" article is going to be for me.
      For my style, the AdvOR chart had some major pitfalls. I will now only open suited connectors first in from MP3 onward except in exceptional circumstances.
      However, I love getting into multi-way pots with them, since there is tons of dead money in there, and if you hit you can cash big.

      The Advanced Open Raising chart cost me a lot of money until I learned how to fold when a CBet bluff got 3Bet.
      Point taken, will play some more from the basic starting hand charts until my postflop game is better :)

      Thanks