Min raising late stages

    • brobz
      brobz
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      For some reason a few months ago, maybe something i read i honestly forget, i changed to min raising late stages..everyone does it and it can take down pots pre flop most times with minimal chips invested

      I'm finding now that in just giving people with bigger stacks or donks and maniacs odds to call with ATC or some weak holding that ends up catching up when I could havve chased it out with 3x-4xbb

      I'm just wondeirng what other players do in terms of raising when blinds and antes get large in relation to stacks

      -do you raise based on stacks during this time?
      -does your raise increase or decrease as blinds come up, or does it always stay the same throughout the game
      - do you min raise pre?

      - do you think min raising is a garbage play? im thinkin so

      just want to hear some thoughts on it...
      thanks
  • 8 replies
    • Mikus8
      Mikus8
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2011 Posts: 240
      I start minraising pre when blinds get 600/1.2k, it keeps opponents guessing and they got to be aware that my range might have changed because i was 2.2bb raising previously.
      You can raise small awkward numbers like 1649 to try and mess up their mind or just raise standard 1.5k, do what you do best to keep opps guessing.
      And also you got to play good post-flop to win.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      Hi brobz

      Personally I like minraising alot since it helps you to keep up the pressure without comitting many chips into the pot preflop. Furthermore you are able to open with a wide range in late position. The most important thing postflop is the pot management. Create big pots by alternating your besizings when you have good holdings. Keep it low when you have a mediocre hand. Even if you hit nothing at all you can take a step at the pot with a very small investment of chips by firing a contibet.

      If you raise bigger you
      - commit a bigger part of your stack,
      - get worse hands to fold,
      - must succeed more often when stealing and contibetting since it's more expensive
      - and therefore you will as well have to play less hands,
      - can't control the pot perfectly postflop,
      - commit yourself faster in postflop battles

      Taking all these points into consideration I prefer minraising a lot.
      Normally I will start a tournament with 4BB open raises (blinds 10/20), continue with 3BB's (blinds 15/30), cut it down to 2,5BB (Blinds 50/100) and end up minbetting (blinds 500/1000). In between those blindlevels my open raises get smaller and smaller.
      Most of the times I will bet something like 2048 at blinds 500/1000 (for example). So it's not the classic minbet. From what I experienced people seem to show more respect to these "minraise+some extra chips" kind of openings.

      Hope this helps!
      More input is obv welcome :)

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • brobz
      brobz
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      Originally posted by Asaban
      Hi brobz

      Personally I like minraising alot since it helps you to keep up the pressure without comitting many chips into the pot preflop. Furthermore you are able to open with a wide range in late position. The most important thing postflop is the pot management. Create big pots by alternating your besizings when you have good holdings. Keep it low when you have a mediocre hand. Even if you hit nothing at all you can take a step at the pot with a very small investment of chips by firing a contibet.

      If you raise bigger you
      - commit a bigger part of your stack,
      - get worse hands to fold,
      - must succeed more often when stealing and contibetting since it's more expensive
      - and therefore you will as well have to play less hands,
      - can't control the pot perfectly postflop,
      - commit yourself faster in postflop battles

      Taking all these points into consideration I prefer minraising a lot.
      Normally I will start a tournament with 4BB open raises (blinds 10/20), continue with 3BB's (blinds 15/30), cut it down to 2,5BB (Blinds 50/100) and end up minbetting (blinds 500/1000). In between those blindlevels my open raises get smaller and smaller.
      Most of the times I will bet something like 2048 at blinds 500/1000 (for example). So it's not the classic minbet. From what I experienced people seem to show more respect to these "minraise+some extra chips" kind of openings.

      Hope this helps!
      More input is obv welcome :)

      Regards,
      Asaban
      Agree with all of this, I jus wanna show a few hands that illustrate my point..not for evualation just to show what happens when min raises go wrong

      PartyGaming - $2+$0|1500/3000 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      UTG+1: 33,197.00
      MP: 156,552.00
      MP+1: 71,089.00
      Hero (CO): 43,504.00
      BTN: 19,664.00
      SB: 160,943.00
      BB: 194,778.00
      UTG: 94,496.00

      UTG+1 posts ante 300.00, MP posts ante 300.00, MP+1 posts ante 300.00, Hero posts ante 300.00, BTN posts ante 300.00, SB posts ante 300.00, BB posts ante 300.00, UTG posts ante 300.00, SB posts SB 1,500.00, BB posts BB 3,000.00

      Pre Flop: (6900.00) Hero has T:spade: A:heart:

      fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 6,000.00, fold, fold, BB calls 3,000.00

      Flop: (15900.00, 2 players) 7:diamond: 9:club: T:heart:
      BB checks, Hero bets 37,204.00 and is all-in, BB calls 37,204.00

      Turn: (90308.00, 2 players) 6:spade:

      River: (90308.00, 2 players) K:spade:

      BB shows 4:club: 8:spade: (Straight, Ten High) (Pre 34%, Flop 33%, Turn 97%)
      Hero shows T:spade: A:heart: (One Pair, Tens) (Pre 66%, Flop 67%, Turn 3%)
      BB wins 90,308.00

      The min raises allows him to come in with a weak holding(beyond weak if u ask me)..Im shoving on flop cause I know this guy will call behind, which he did, but I mean, can we say someone will call a 6k bet but he would fold this to a 7.5-9k bet? with jus one different bet I could have been in this tournement longer
      __________________________________________________________

      Here is another example although its not as badd BUT it coud have been if I caught my pair

      PartyGaming - $2+$0|1000/2000 NL - Holdem - 8 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      CO: 44,049.00
      BTN: 41,623.00
      SB: 51,917.00
      BB: 121,061.00
      UTG: 35,156.00
      UTG+1: 47,394.00
      MP: 19,354.00
      Hero (MP+1): 55,136.00

      CO posts ante 200.00, BTN posts ante 200.00, SB posts ante 200.00, BB posts ante 200.00, UTG posts ante 200.00, UTG+1 posts ante 200.00, MP posts ante 200.00, Hero posts ante 200.00, SB posts SB 1,000.00, BB posts BB 2,000.00

      Pre Flop: (4600.00) Hero has A:club: Q:diamond:

      fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 5,000.00, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 3,000.00

      Flop: (12600.00, 2 players) 3:diamond: 6:spade: 2:spade:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      Turn: (12600.00, 2 players) 2:club:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      River: (12600.00, 2 players) 5:spade:
      BB checks, Hero checks

      BB shows J:club: 2:heart: (Three of a Kind, Twos) (Pre 31%, Flop 76%, Turn 100%)
      Hero mucks A:club: Q:diamond: (One Pair, Twos) (Pre 69%, Flop 24%, Turn 0%)
      BB wins 12,600.00

      Exact same opponent as before..again I dont need any evualtions was just simply showing what made me double think the min raise, not just todays session but others as well

      Asaban really hard to argue with your points, considering my only point for raising big is to chase out weak holdings lol

      I duno interesting discussion either way
    • Mikus8
      Mikus8
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.10.2011 Posts: 240
      In that case dont minraise against that opponent. Adjust your play against different opponents.
    • brobz
      brobz
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      My thinking then is if he is a couple seats behind me should I jus shove with a M of 10 or lower or any substantial raise will have me commited almost anyway, so shoving should be the right line against an idiot(no other word to describe lol)
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      This is obv a very selective cognition (did I use the right english term?). Just because there are a few cases were minraising leads you into bad situations this does not mean that the minraise was bad.

      Talking about your hands:
      Hand 1 is a perfect example why minraising is good. He calls you with his crap and gets it in with 33% on the flop. You are getting it in far ahead and should be pretty happy about it. The rest is variance and therefore not of any interest.
      Although you did not want an evaluation i would like to add that I don't like your open raise with this stack size (easy open shove). I also don't like the shove on the flop. Imo the hand is misplayed. Still you get it in with 67% Equity. How can you ask for more? Oo

      Hand 2 is not a minraise. And it's not even close. Furthermore I miss the smallest attempt of getting the pot. No Contibet - why? No delayed Contibet - why? Sure - in the end it might has saved you chips - but thats selective cognition again. "I would have lost a ton of money if the board came down with other cards" is kinda senseless as well ;)

      Hope I was able to help you. Maybe you should post some hands for evaluation in the according forums from time to time as well. Helps a lot when you try to improve your game imo.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • brobz
      brobz
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 569
      Ya for sure post some tonight for sure

      Appreciate it thanks

      the only reason I said I didnt want a evaluation was because I thought I played it best against this type of opp thats all....as u can see i was set to double up so
    • MaxerMax
      MaxerMax
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.04.2008 Posts: 11
      You should be happy the guy isn't folding his 84 type garbage because you're crushing his equity on most flops. He's calling there if he has middle pair while you have top and you're a huge favorite.

      IMO if you're trying to win a tourney you would rather win his stack most of the time rather than his BB all of the time. Especially if he's checking down his pairs and trips. Only get in post flop when you think you're ahead and that's better than risking more preflop to get him to fold everything but premium hands, which he will 3bet and you will either have to lay down or stack off when you're behind.