5CD Did I overplay this?

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,418
      Post draw, I think my first re-raise is OK.
      Capping it seems OK too, since I figured that if he's drawing 3, I have most of his hits beat.

      Also this player was quite capable of re-raising less-than-great hands.


      Converted by the cows of Feral Cow Poker
      PokerStars Limit 5 Card Draw $0.10/$0.20 - 6 players

      UTG: $7.26
      UTG+1: $1.76
      CO: $5.04 (Hero)
      Button: $0.54
      SB: $2.33
      BB: $4.13

      Dealing Hands: ($0.15) (6 players)
      2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, Button raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

      First Draw: ($0.95) (3 players)
      BB discards 3, Hero discards 1, Button discards 2,
      ||
      BB bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.40, Button calls $0.24 and is all-in, BB raises to $0.60, Hero raises to $0.80, BB calls $0.20

      Hero showed , a full house, Fours full of Tens
      Button mucked
      BB showed , four of a kind, Aces
      BB won $2.69
      (Rake: $0.10)
  • 11 replies
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      Maybe I'm wrong, but if I make a full house in FL 5CD, I'm just autocapping, and tbh I do the same in PL 5CD. It's really hard to make quads or a FH.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Can he 3bet AAA?

      If YES then you're 11,4/(11,4+1,2)*100% = ~90% favourite
      If NO then...fold to 3bet :f_grin:
    • jbpatzer
      jbpatzer
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2009 Posts: 6,950
      I sometimes wonder how I ever made any $$$ at 5CD.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,418
      Originally posted by jbpatzer
      I sometimes wonder how I ever made any $$$ at 5CD.
      Well, the notion that it is a low-variance game is laughable.

      I've come to the conclusion that no poker hand is any good unless someone at the table has a slightly worse one.

      After I lost with my FH, I went back and looked at all my big hands, and overall I win, but a nauseatingly large portion of my pat hands just get the blinds.

      There is no real way to gauge the strength of the opponents hands, since they will bet the same way hitting a set. Here he kept a pair of AA, and since I drew 1, and was betting eagerly, I should have assumed he would figure me for a made flush, and therefore he could beat that -- or thought he could.

      From my perspective, he is drawing 3, I was assuming he hit trips. I should have realized that he must have had something better, so I should have called, not capped, but it still only saves me a little.

      In this case, I'm the one w/ the slightly worse one.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
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      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      "Thinking player" shouldn't 3bet AAA when 1-card draw raise him.
      But "thinking player" after discarding 3 will never lead vs 1-card draw but auto-check to him regardless of his hand.
      So vs Reg you're always in the "bet/3bet" position not "raise/cap"
      That say I can't imagine situation when capping FH vs 3-card draw will be a mistake...
      Unless you maybe stand pat on baby FH and 3-card draw raises you!
      (I hate this! :f_cry: )



      Well, the notion that it is a low-variance game is laughable.

      Play some Limit Holdem...I'll give you 3 rivers and you'll be back in 5cd :D

      Swing in LHE = 2x bankroll in 5CD
    • AlfaChino
      AlfaChino
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2012 Posts: 11
      Question was did you overplay this hand... No you didnt...

      You had solid hand for late position, but let me say this, two mid/low pairs are often overplayed...

      How action/betting went down and since he discarted 3 cards, and you hitting a boat, his hand is in majority of times high two pair or high trips ( e.g. he called with KK and got another pair or 3rd K... that is in most cases his lead out betting range ( he will most probably never check raise with hand like that unless 3 Kings are in question then just might but probably not playing limit game and on that limit, this would be move of a more experienced players...

      Also i will say thinking about flush here is also very "iffy" because how many times will player just call with two suited cards and change 3 to hit the flush against two players in position? Maybe just sometimes with hands like AK-AQ suited but thats really losing strategy and stretching it to the max cos your only way to win is to hit, you just dont have manouver space this being a limit game, what is the range that will not call if you try to bluff??...

      Playing limit 5CD and having a boat cant be overplayed really...no way, no how ;) ... Let me explane; boat is hard to get and you have it, your primary goal is extracting value...since its limit game you bet, raise, reraise do everything you can to get more money in, cos mathematicaly you will be beat in such small percentage of time that its ridicolous against how many times your hand is good and you went for maximum value...

      My advice, if you want to master this game go to pot limit, thats the game to play...
    • Huricano
      Huricano
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      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Playing limit 5CD and having a boat cant be overplayed really...no way, no how


      Boat/full house can be overplayed in FL5CD and you don't even know how easilly! I can give you thousands of examples. Of course you won't lost much in the longrun because this spots are rare, but clearly sooo unusual that worth attention ;)

      E.g. let's say you hold AAAKK (nut boat!) and your opponent cap the betting predraw. You stand pat of course and he discard 2 to the trips. Now if he raises your cbet, 3bet always will be a mistake! How is it possible?

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/21/draw-other-poker/unusual-type-mistake-fl-5-card-draw-907298/
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Here 3bet would be also a overplay unless misodorki has a very wide semibluffing range:

      Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit 5 Card Draw - 6 players - View hand 1705026
      DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

      Pre Draw: (1.5 SB) Hero is BB with A :spade: A :diamond: 7 :diamond: 4 :club: 4 :diamond:
      prada52 folds, misodorki raises, anbo63 folds, Ramon272727 calls, Lylov folds, Hero 3-bets, misodorki calls, Ramon272727 calls

      First Draw: (9.5 SB) (3 players)
      Hero draws 1, misodorki draws 1, Ramon272727 draws 3
      Hand: A :spade: A :diamond: 4 :club: 4 :diamond: 4 :spade:
      Hero bets, misodorki raises, Ramon272727 folds, Hero calls
    • AlfaChino
      AlfaChino
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      Joined: 10.04.2012 Posts: 11
      Boat/full house can be overplayed in FL5CD and you don't even know how easilly! I can give you thousands of examples.
      Thousands ha? thats a big number ;) , lets be real here... holding a boat in 5CD or any game for that matter and not being good happens but not as frequently that its worth underplaying it...

      Huricano, are you a player yourself or are you just quoting other players opinions? I read that 2+2 article and all i see is you quoting "bigpooch", i suggest you read "spike420211" comment ;)

      In percentage, those situations are rare and you will lose more value on a long run playing it carefull then you will loose by overplaying it by far... therefor, its not overplaying... we are talking about losing 3 bets against winning mass hands where your oponent gets back to you with flushes and lots of high sets and bluffs...

      Its different if you play a lot with certain player and you play it carefully, even more if you play deepstack and you want to do some pot control just in case he is never bluffing in that spot... but overall and on a long run, being too carefull with full house in any game is non proffitable play...

      I guess that next thing youll say is that you have to play top full carefull in Hold`em just in case the other guy is holding quads? lol... good luck making money in poker
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,418
      Originally posted by AlfaChino
      Boat/full house can be overplayed in FL5CD and you don't even know how easilly! I can give you thousands of examples.
      Thousands ha? thats a big number ;) , lets be real here... holding a boat in 5CD or any game for that matter and not being good happens but not as frequently that its worth underplaying it...
      I have only 25000 hands in my database and have lost with a full house 12 out of 158 times, for a total of 61 BB, averaging 5BB per loss. (Only two of those losses were pat hands).
      Of the 146 times I won I only won 395BB, averaging 2.7BB per win.

      Seems significant enough.

      People raise pat hands enough post draw trying to flush out bluffs often enough that I still think it worthwhile to cap.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      In percentage, those situations are rare and you will lose more value on a long run playing it carefull then you will loose by overplaying it by far... therefor, its not overplaying


      If you open shove every AA preflop you will win more than loose, but does it mean It's the best, the most EV+ play?

      Huricano, are you a player yourself or are you just quoting other players opinions? I read that 2+2 article and all i see is you quoting "bigpooch", i suggest you read "spike420211" comment wink


      Ahhh ok, I should noticed that this is almost bp quote, but I gave a link to this thread so I think he won't blame me :)
      I read spike's comment but I can't imagine Ova is c/r trips vs Stand Pat :f_confused:

      we are talking about losing 3 bets against winning mass hands where your oponent gets back to you with flushes and lots of high sets and bluffs...


      You will gain nothing by 3bet if your opponent is on a bluff and high sets may be excluded if you know something about your opponent.

      In my spot with misodorki he open raise from HJ so I won't put him on a hand like 8765x or Qh flushdraw thus he has very few made draws in his range. (mostly A flush or completed 12-15 outers)
      With high sets (AAA is impossible ofc) he would cap the betting predraw so most of his range are towards made FH.
      3bet in this spot, vs this type of player is a mistake.

      Plz tell me if you stand pat on 22233 and someone raises you postdraw do you 3bet and call the cap and then say:
      "lol FH are so rare and I was a favourite! He can have trips, bluffs, straights and flushes"?

      // sorry for English
    • AlfaChino
      AlfaChino
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.04.2012 Posts: 11
      Plz tell me if you stand pat on 22233 and someone raises you postdraw do you 3bet and call the cap and then say:
      "lol FH are so rare and I was a favourite! He can have trips, bluffs, straights and flushes"?

      // sorry for English

      ... you were mentioining AAAKK, now its 22233?

      you are getting this all wrong dude, its not about overanalysing one hand, its about overall value... on a long run you cant underplay high boats, it doesnt make sense even tho you will sometimes loose, but like i said in acceptable percentage over extra value you can get with 3/4 betting.

      I will call behind PAT hand ( high boats excluded ) if i know my oponent and i know there are no bluffs in his range... i do agree that on some players you can just call behind with 22233, but not AAAKK, never and ever...

      anyway... run the math if you dont belive me... and one more thing... "bigpooch" post is more about showing off and debate...oooo i made "HUGE mistake" ... yeah right