How to improve my red-line?

    • thanhthao85
      thanhthao85
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 8
      Hi,

      I saw some players graph with red line go up. How would I achieve that?

      Im playing NL4 on Merge
      My Stats (for this March):
      VPIP: 11
      PFR: 8
      PF 3B: 4
      F3B PF: 78
      WTSD: 30
      W$SD: 53
      CB Flop: 62
      Fold CBFlop: 50
      Att.Steal: 17
      FvsSteal: 80
      Total AF: 1.77

      And graph for this month

  • 18 replies
    • DecMate
      DecMate
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.01.2009 Posts: 939
      most peoples red line goes down, it's nothing to worry about. BUT if you are, you have to take the pot away from people. E.G. Bluff more, make more value bets on the river (which will in turn get your redline up for the times they dont call and you win the pot).

      Most likely the guys graph you saw will be playing loose agro, in which you make more bluffs and cbet more and barrel more which is why there redline is up.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Stop folding
    • dragan2171
      dragan2171
      Silver
      Joined: 03.03.2011 Posts: 116
      use ruler.
    • phantommm92
      phantommm92
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2010 Posts: 1,464
      like the last 2 comments, good old pokerstrategy :f_biggrin:
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Your red line is actually really good for a tag style. -5bb/100 is pretty much what you can hope for playing 11/8.

      If you want a breakeven/winning redline you have to losssen up to 20/18 with 6-8% 3bet. That will let you steal more pots preflop with out SD. Also valuebetting really thin on turn/river will get your NSD up a lot.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      don't forget that it's NL4, people don't fold!

      you shouldn't worry about your redline at all yet, hell i have played 35/30/5af at NL2 SH and my redline still sucked

      [edit: said 7k hands graph for that playstyle here]
    • thanhthao85
      thanhthao85
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 8
      @Tomaloc: your red line still less suck than mine,nice graph

      Ill try to bluff more.Sometime I play extremely nit which is no set no bet :f_confused: and I do value bet river really thin :f_biggrin: ,but still get river raise by air :f_o: .

      Thanks for your advices.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      One thing that people don't seem to mention ever is that rake is counted towards non showdown loss.

      I did some practice HU matches like a year ago vs one reg and we both ended up being a bit down in NSD. Can't think of any other explanation than the rake.

      Someone correct me if I'm wrong :P
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      One thing that people don't seem to mention ever is that rake is counted towards non showdown loss.

      I did some practice HU matches like a year ago vs one reg and we both ended up being a bit down in NSD. Can't think of any other explanation than the rake.

      Someone correct me if I'm wrong :P
      Well, when you win a pot whether it's at showdown or NSD the rake is already discounted in HEM afaik. Say you win a $50 pot without showdown and the rake is $2, your NSD will only go up $24 ( (50-2)/2). Since most pots are non-showdown then rake has a bigger impact on the red line I assume. The blinds are also non-showdown winnings going down if I remember correctly..


      @Improving the redline: Make people fold air and value bet thinly.
    • Alficor1
      Alficor1
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.06.2010 Posts: 7,291
      Openshove every hand.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      The rake obv has a high impact on your nsd winnings since those are small pots that are always fully raked since the pots aren't big enough to reach the cap.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,907
      Overall, I think that the only line you need worry about is the green one.

      The red line going down means that you are more-or-less appropriately folding trash. If you want your red line to go up, 3Bet more, float more etc. which means that you are going to win more before showdown.

      If you do that, then your red line goes up, but your blue line gets really bumpy. I love your blue line.
      The result looks like this:



      Somewhere around the deep valley in my green line, I started to check/raise flops OOP, and 3Bet CBets when IP. I got lots of folds, but when they DIDN'T fold, I lost way more at showdown.

      Mind you -- if I interpret my graph correctly, my EV line tells me I got sucked out on far more than my share for the month. See THAT question here: How do I interpret the EV line in an HEM graph?
    • inlovewithamsterdam
      inlovewithamsterdam
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.07.2009 Posts: 666
      Just as Verneer and loads of other coaches advocate - red line is not of concern to you on the micros! Red line climbs higher the more pots you win without showdown - stealing limped pots, 3betting pre and getting people to fold, thin valuebets...etc; given the average style of play on the micros ("oh what the hell, I'll call this with King high, he could be trying to bluff me and it's only 12 cents") this won't be huge.

      So to sum up - work on how to get your fat value on those micros and don't ever waste a thought on your red line (up to, say NL25-50).

      Good luck
      Matt
    • Letsdothisish
      Letsdothisish
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.02.2009 Posts: 995
      Originally posted by inlovewithamsterdam
      Just as Verneer and loads of other coaches advocate - red line is not of concern to you on the micros! Red line climbs higher the more pots you win without showdown - stealing limped pots, 3betting pre and getting people to fold, thin valuebets...etc; given the average style of play on the micros ("oh what the hell, I'll call this with King high, he could be trying to bluff me and it's only 12 cents") this won't be huge.

      So to sum up - work on how to get your fat value on those micros and don't ever waste a thought on your red line (up to, say NL25-50).

      Good luck
      Matt
      This ^
    • mbml
      mbml
      Black
      Joined: 27.11.2008 Posts: 20,694
      bluff more
      valuebet more thinly
      bluff catch more

      this doesnt mean you do it for the sake of boosting your redline
      but you should try to improve in these areas where you can barrel and expect to make a +EV bluff, or maybe get a thin value bet, or bluff catch because you are getting the right odds to make a call
    • thanhthao85
      thanhthao85
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.07.2007 Posts: 8
      Hello there,

      Thanks coaches for advices

      I did what you guys tell me bluff more, value bet thinly, more aggressive overall.

      I look like a call-station with WTSD=30, people have hard times to bluff me. Should I call less on the river?

      and this is result stats, not large samples but to see the idea work

      One day on merge, the redline was going up, and green line declined, however my adjusted all-in ev is high, because ive got the money in and got suckout by worse hands 4-5 times cost me 4-5 buy-ins, i guess its ok, its poker, here the graph:



      Another day on iPoker, with red line was also going up

    • Castle93
      Castle93
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 1,452
      Seems to ha improved well done buddy :D least you can take advice which is always a good skill to have , I'd probably say that a positive red line is much harder at the though because most of your money comes from fish not folding their hands which for the same reason makes it harder to bluff
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,907
      --sry wrong thread