How to adjust for a very deep stack

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      I was playing zoom, and found myself with a 400 BB stack.

      Facing an even BIGGER stack, I came to realize that without the stone-cold nuts, going all-in could be a very costly adventure.

      So I chickened out, and folded AK from the BTN when 3Bet from the BB.
      I then realized that he has the same problems I do -- calling a 4Bet could end up being a v costly adventure.

      So I did what any normal chicken would do, I closed and re-opened and continued to play with a "normal" stack.

      To the question:
      What adjustments do you make when you play w/ a v deep stack in a cash game?
  • 7 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Depends on what opponents do. First and foremost, you don't bet/bet/shove that often, obviously since stack are too deep.

      Second, as you noticed, you look to have the nuts more often.

      You can now 3bet even lighter in position and you should depolarize your range completely, be inclined to call some 4bets IP depending on who you are facing.

      The deeper you are, the bigger the positional advantage so I'd snap call AKo in that spot. I'd be inclined to call quite a few hands in that situation.

      If you are not comfortable playing deep stack just rejoin for 100bb. You clearly made a very big mistake by folding AKo there. What would you do with KK?
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      ...and you should depolarize your range completely
      by this do you mean "don't bluff"? If I understand "Polarized range" it means doing the same thing w/ the nuts & with air -- is that correct?


      If you are not comfortable playing deep stack just rejoin for 100bb. You clearly made a very big mistake by folding AKo there. What would you do with KK?
      Well, "not comfortable" describes that situation perfectly, and rejoin is what I did. I don't think that it is ever a mistake to fold when you're out of your experience.

      With KK -- and AK w/ both players w/ 100 - 200 bb stacks -- I would have likely shoved here.

      I will hopefully be in similar situations in future.
      I've been deep stacked in tournaments before, but in those, you have more fold equity than in cash games.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Yes, depolarized means your 6% or whatever 3bet percentage should be top 6% hands like TT+, AQ+, AJs+. Being deep I'd add suited broadways, all medium pairs, maybe some suited aces. I do this because I expect people to call OOP very deep with weak hands like small pairs and medium suited connectors.

      If you compare your ranges you see that you crush him being deep IP. It doesn't get better than that. :)

      I've mentioned in a thread that you could make an argument for defending those hands OOP vs a 3bet but if opponent is depolarized you can't really call imo. You have to have a significant skill advantage to do it because you have card and position disadvantage.

      Do you mean you would shove 4bet vs 3bet with those hands? Not the greatest strategy imo. Especially not if you do it with premiums only and absolutely terrible with whatever you do it if you are >130bbs deep imo.

      LE: Polarized means no medium hands... It's hands you consider the nuts and some hands you consider bluffs. Even bluff hands should have decent pot equity though, that's why a bluff with K6s is better than one with 64o.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Do you mean you would shove 4bet vs 3bet with those hands? Not the greatest strategy imo. Especially not if you do it with premiums only and absolutely terrible with whatever you do it if you are >130bbs deep imo.
      I used to raise 4bb from the BTN, but I've dropped to 3.
      So if I raise my AKo from BTN 3bb, and get 3Bet, that 3Bet will be in the order of 10BB.

      If I try to 4Bet, I'm committing about 1/3 of my remaining stack, which leaves v little manoeuvring room post flop. Since I'm IP, I suppose I could just flat.

      I can also see that w/ a deep stack flat is a much more viable option.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Do you mean you would shove 4bet vs 3bet with those hands? Not the greatest strategy imo. Especially not if you do it with premiums only and absolutely terrible with whatever you do it if you are >130bbs deep imo.
      I used to raise 4bb from the BTN, but I've dropped to 3.
      So if I raise my AKo from BTN 3bb, and get 3Bet, that 3Bet will be in the order of 10BB.

      If I try to 4Bet, I'm committing about 1/3 of my remaining stack, which leaves v little manoeuvring room post flop. Since I'm IP, I suppose I could just flat.

      I can also see that w/ a deep stack flat is a much more viable option.
      Leverage.

      Say you open 3bb on BU. You get 3bet to 11bb. A 4bet to 23bb acheives about the same as one to 33bb. With a 23bb you can also have a bluff range plus it may encourage him to come in with crap hand. I'll return later with a more detailed post, I'm going to bed now...
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      OK, back to write some more.

      When you are 100bb deep or more you definitely can 4bet/fold depending on opponent. The 3x suggested in the articles is just some standard thing that usually works vs fish but it's far from the best play.

      The definition of value betting/raising is to get called or raised by worse hands and a smaller 4bet size actually allows for a lot lighter 5bets so you can more value that way. It also allows for a 4bet bluff range against a light 3bettor, especially when you are OOP and don't want to call 3bets in that situation.

      Fish don't care about sizing that much so that's why the 3x works with them but against someone you have an aggressive dynamic with will probably be capable of 5betting light. If I'm not mistaken I've found people 5betting air at NL10 so it's not something as unusual as you might think.

      Is it the best strategy? It depends but it is clearly one of the most common used now. The nitty chart game doesn't cut it above NL10 imo. You will struggle if you don't turn up the aggression. To quote 0human0: "Even fish see you are just a ridiculous nit and fold vs you".
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
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      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      I don't know what the standard play is 400bb deep with AK, obviously we don't want to stack off pre against anyone who isn't a certified maniac. But you can call a 3-bet with a very wide range if you want and certainly AK. You don't want to play for stacks unless you have the nuts but you can flop the nuts with AK. Or play a normal AK hand, just because you have 400bb behind doesn't mean you or your opponent is going to play for stacks.