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Non-showdown losses

    • Hopey
      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 193
      About 18 months ago I quit poker. Recently I came back and started playing again, to help me I bought Holdem Manager. I had my old hand history saved on my computer so I created a graph which showed this:

      It looks to me like that significant a loss in Non-showdwon cost me badly.

      :spade: What is the likely cause of me losing so much Non-showdown?
      :heart: What are the likely solutions to this problem?
      :diamond: Will improving my non-showdown situation lead to reduced showdown winnings?


  • 4 replies
    • maheepsangari
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      As far as I have known non-showdown winnings are negative when you play against fish and showdown winnings are quite positive which makes the overall go up. When you play against a lot of regs or tight players then non showdown winnings aren't that low but showdown winnings take a hit. Basically non showdown winnings are positive when you bluff a lot which you can't do against fishes.

      Maybe you should start watching your C-Betting if C-Bets don't work thats one big reason for non showdown winnings to go less.

      So I guess if you're playing on tables against fish then stop bluffing and if you're playing against tight opponents then start bluffing.
    • SvenBe
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,487
      he Hopey,

      there is no easy answer to your question.
      Your nonshowdonlosses come from - guess once - more folding before the river when you invested money then your opponents do.

      What indication can that give you about your game?

      NOT: You should fold simply less before showdown
      NOT: You should bet more to get your opponents to fold their hand

      Why not? Because you would be fighting symptoms, not reasons.
      Should you happen to play a style like our Starting Hand Chart propagates for beginners you will naturally loose without showdown, since this very,very basic strategy is focused on playing strong ranges + not risking anything else but in multiway pots.
      Remember that you sometimes limp-call Pocket-77 for setvalue? Flop comes KQ4 and you just check/fold? This happens on average every 8 out 9 times and you would generate non-showdownlosses. However in the 1 out of 9 where you hit your set you will try to come to showdown and most likely win the hand there.
      Result: your game will be showdownbound, you play a way-ahead,way behind-situation there.

      But what makes the difference between a player who simply makes no unprofitable moves (playing Starting hand chart) and the guy who walks the extra mile?
      What would a good player do with 77 on KQ4? Always check-fold? Surely not! He would think for every situation on how he can turn this into a profitable spot.
      Ask yourself:
      * Do you attack the blinds only with a certain type of hands or do you take into consideration how you expect your oponents to react?
      * Do you just give up 77 on KQ4 or do you think if about if an opponent with a X%-range might actually be weak on this flop?
      * Do you make yourself a plan for a hand and try to improve your play on every street (hint: use Equilab to find out what cards are profitable to continue on)
      ...and so on.
      I'd say on average the more experienced you are, the more you are thinking about your game, the more you will increase your non-showdownwinnings.
      However there is no guarantee that you need to have non-showdownwinnings. Just imagine one opponent on your table is going allin every single hand - would you have nonshowdownwinnings against such players? Never,since you either go allin or fold your blinds (=loose money). This is an extreme, but maheepsangari already pointed the issue out.

      What could you now effectively do:

      * Start to make up your own gameplan instead of following beginners charts and other pre-prepared advice on play
      * use our hand evaluation forum to discuss your hands and see if your assumptions are correct - both on your own hand and your opponents range.
      *take part in live coaching sessions & watch our videos.

      It is up to you !
    • pleno1
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      great post Sven!

    • Hopey
      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 193
      Yeah that has really helped me.

      Over the next week or so I will post some of the harder folds I have made to see whether I am folding correctly or not.

      Also looking at my stats, in hindsight, I think I might have been conti-betting too much and then barely betting the turn at all. Maybe I should fire two barrels (in the right situation, obviously not indescriminantely) more often rather than just giving up after my cbet is called.