Blue line has met red line, what does this mean?

    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      As title suggests, i've had a bad few thousand hands, i feel completely hand starved.

      Does the blue line cascading downwards support this? if not what does it mean?



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      I've been told my red line is good, if this is the case, why are my winnings so meager?

      Hope someone can help.
  • 18 replies
    • Krishjanis
      Krishjanis
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      Joined: 04.01.2010 Posts: 977
      Red line is non-showdown winnings, basically it's all the hands you win or lose when no one flips over their cards(showdown).
      Blue is showdown winnings, this is when you and the villain flip over hands and see who has the better card combination.

      Your red line is good because it's not going down you are keeping it level and not losing money(break even), so basically you pick your spots to c-bet bluff and taking away pots in which no one is interested and bluffing at the right time.

      Your blue line going down at the end, which means that you call down when you are beat. It kinda looks like you were tilted at the end and just kept calling down hands or tried to bluff when you obviously were beat and the villain just called you and took the pot, and your non-showdown winnings are going up so it looks like you were just bluffing too much and villains just folded (red line going up) and when they had something you still tried to bluff them but the just called you down because they had it (blue line going down).
      I hope you got my point I was trying to make in the short version, just understand what both lines mean and then you can figure it out.

      Just ask what else is unclear, don't worry if it doesn't click right away it takes time and I didn't go that deep to explain.
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      i understand what you mean, im overplaying/bluffing at the stakes im playing i think. I still feel starved of hands though and really want to beleive this has something to do with it!

      Maybe im tilting because of that though... hmm... complicated
    • Krishjanis
      Krishjanis
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      Joined: 04.01.2010 Posts: 977
      Originally posted by haines21
      i understand what you mean, im overplaying/bluffing at the stakes im playing i think. I still feel starved of hands though and really want to beleive this has something to do with it!

      Maybe im tilting because of that though... hmm... complicated
      I don't think you are that card dead, I mean you still end up at the showdown. And you can't be card dead if your non-showdown is going up, obviously you are winning by being aggressive and making opponents fold so either you are hitting everything or just bluffing too much. And you only got 5k hands which is pretty much nothing. Think to yourself if you are playing you A game and then go on talking about being card dead and look at the start of your graph you got a massive climb and after that it might feel like you are not doing so good. How many days played are in the graph?
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      3 months
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Your winnings suck because you don't put in volume not because there's something wrong w your blue/red lines. There might be smth wrong but w no volume we can't tell either.
    • JonikoP
      JonikoP
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      Joined: 15.05.2010 Posts: 600
      Come back when you've played 30k hands and post your stats - then you might get some useful advice on what your leaks are.
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      Originally posted by JonikoP
      Come back when you've played 30k hands and post your stats - then you might get some useful advice on what your leaks are.

      So is it not possible to give constructive criticism unless your a reg with 30k hands...?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by haines21
      Originally posted by JonikoP
      Come back when you've played 30k hands and post your stats - then you might get some useful advice on what your leaks are.

      So is it not possible to give constructive criticism unless your a reg with 30k hands...?
      No because there's too much variance in poker and over this small sample your graph could look like anything. If you want any constructive criticism post some stats instead and even that will be highly impacted by variance.
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Originally posted by haines21
      Originally posted by JonikoP
      Come back when you've played 30k hands and post your stats - then you might get some useful advice on what your leaks are.

      So is it not possible to give constructive criticism unless your a reg with 30k hands...?
      No because there's too much variance in poker and over this small sample your graph could look like anything. If you want any constructive criticism post some stats instead and even that will be highly impacted by variance.
      thanks for clearing that up, will just ride it out till i get 30k hands then.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      You still can post stats like vpivp/pfr/3bet/fold to 3bet/cbet/turncbet/fold to cbet etc those should be somewhat accurate reflection on your gameplay and if there are some big leaks there we'll prob be able to point it out. Also say what format u are playing etc.
    • Hopey
      Hopey
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      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 193
      Haha! I get to be useful (sort of).

      Firstly with the non-showdown winnings bit; I had a problem with this, except I was losing loads when not showing down. I asked about it and got a reply (for reply click here!!) which included a couple of really good posts about how you should treat non-showdown winnings, especially at micro and small stakes (I'm guessing you are playing NL10 from the 6 buy in heater you went on in the first 1000 hands). A lot of people have told me that at micro stakes you should be concentrating on getting value from your hands; and that bluffing is often counter productive as the number of fish make that a total minefield.

      I'm not saying stop doing what you're doing, with respect to non-showdown winnings, because you'll find that certain boards and situations scare the shit out of people at those levels and I think it's certainly possible to exploit this (in fact neglecting this is what lead to some of my troubles the first time I attempted poker 18months ago).

      As for feeling like you are not picking up any hands, everyone has that "why can't I have rockets, villain always seems to be getting rockets" feeling occasionally but speaking from the point of view of a previously impatient motherfucker I can tell you that succumbing to that feeling and trying to force the game is suicide, especially at the micros where the concept of a triple barrel bluff just sails miles over many people's heads. The sad fact in this scenario is that you will log sessions where nothing happens (for example, and many of the players here will have better examples, I played a session a couple of days ago that lasted 2000 hands; in that session I was all-in only 3 times and of those all-ins the most I was playing for was 2/3 of one buy in). However whilst this is sometimes the case you may also play sessions where the action never seems to stop and you end up winning 6 buy ins (a bit like the beginning of your graph).

      This reply might be a bit scattergun, but coming from a player who has lost at poker and has done a lot of self analysis trying to turn that around, I hope it helps.

      Hopey
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      Hopey, fantastic post thanks for the input. I agree that i am getting impatient, expected a pocket kings or aces after 200 hands into a session. Need to chill out on that one.

      Also what is your take on getting AI PF for a full stack with AKs? I was doing it alot (downswings on graph) but have completed stoped now. Reason being, after running a pokerstove simulation, if the opponent is gettign AI with QQ+ and 57s etc, im around 50% to win or less in most cases. Hand is not as strong as i had led myself to believe.

      Here are my current stats:



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    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      So this is full ring, right?

      The gap between vpip and pfr is rly high if u r playing w 16 vpip your pfr should be around 12 or so. So start raising more of the hands you are limping or fold more hands.

      3bet% is ok i guess for NL10, ~5% I think is standard for a fr reg.

      WTSD seems high'ish too I think ~25% is standard for fr (correct me if i'm wrong someone, don't rly play much fr)

      Call vs 3bet seems kinda high for FR, especially @ NL10 where regs aren't as aggro preflop so I think you are getting yourself into a bit too much bloated pots with weak holdings.

      Turn cbet seems rly high, that's obv the reason why you have redline like that, but def seems too much. I'd suggest posting some hands in hand evaluation boards where you were double barreling the turn to get evaluated, there def could be some sort of a leak.

      And btw, you seem to not be happy about your results, but 7bb/100 is rly rly good winrate, ofc the sample is meaningless here so it completely says nothing about your actual wr.
    • haines21
      haines21
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      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 45
      Thanks for that nightfrostaSS, i think the reason for the big gap is i am nearly always limping with pockets when the player has 20x original raise behind them.

      I'm also typically on Nl .04

      I also agree, i need to stop barreling the turn as these players don't really think. So why bluff?

      Should my 3bet% be closer for 5 then? And where can i find examples of typical stats for FR @ various limits?
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Well, limping behind other limpers is fine sometimes, but you shouldn't be open limping almost ever.

      As for 3betting ,yeah, it could be higher, I think you are missing out on some nice spots to resteal, squeeze, or just value vs fish. Don't rly think it's an issue tho, 3bet what you feel comfortable with for now on, and as you get more experience the 3betting range will prob loosen up by itself.

      Don't rly know of examples for typical stats for various limits, just talking from experience. I think there's more super nits at lower stakes and as you go up nits tend to loosen up a bit since TAG's are better and aren't paying them off as much and there's less fish as well. And typical TAG regulars tend to steal and resteal a bit more as well as isolate the fishes better.
    • ihufa
      ihufa
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      Joined: 18.03.2008 Posts: 3,323
      purple line-babies i guess
    • Hopey
      Hopey
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      Joined: 05.03.2010 Posts: 193
      Originally posted by haines21
      Also what is your take on getting AI PF for a full stack with AKs?
      Unless there is history (i.e. the guy shoves pre-flop a lot/calls shoves with Ax/or is obviously simple) then I would recomend almost never getting it in with AK pre flop in the micros.

      If you shove you only get called by JJ+ by most people (even the loose ones tend to be wary of pre-flop shoves). To be in the position to get it in with AK the pot has probably already been 4bet and most micro players aren't 4betting light because they think your 3betting range is loose, they just don't think like that.

      IMO you are far better calling and seeing a flop for 2 reasons.

      1. Gives you a chance to outdraw some good pocket pairs, most micro players will stack post flop with their QQ even on a A high board in a pot that was 3bet pre-flop.
      2. Calling 3bets (or even just open raises from some players) keeps players who will stack of with top pair in the pot. A ton of micro players are happy to get it in with any Ace on a xAx flop, or Kx on a xKx board so to raise them out of the pot pre-flop is a mistake in the micros as far as I am concerned.

      In short micro players in general just can't read your hand range. If you can confidently assign them a range then there is so much value in playing against them post flop. Which comes back to the original post about non-showdown winnings, I have found trying to make fish fold is almost impossible, far better waiting for your hands, seeing a flop, then pocketing money from their poor play.

      Hope that helps

      Hopey
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      AK is a hand that you kinda need to play poker with.

      At higher stakes the dynamics are usually so aggro pf that it will rarely be a mistake to get it in pre.

      On micros I guess I could advice to always 3bet fishes with it. Get it in vs most shorties unless they are extremely nitty.

      You can flat nitty UTG raisers since they prob won't get it in or call you light OOP so there's more value in flatting imo. However you can make a 3bet vs nitty UTG raiser if some fishy player overcalls his raise to try and reisolate the fish.

      However 3bet late position raisers, even more nitty players will have wider ranges here and will tend to call lighter because OMGOMG position and OMGOMG it's BU vs BB.

      Air on the side of sqeezing w it too, it just won't play that well in multiway pots w high stack to pot ratio once you get some heat.


      Well, this rly doesn't explain how to play AK fully, but I think you'll do better if you follow this advice than just blindly 3betting and getting in or just flatting all the time etc.