help me with this basic concept. c-ring for value HU how much eq do we need?

    • tehhands
      tehhands
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2012 Posts: 6
      Hi,

      I'm wondering if someone can help me understand standard play HU OOP. Possibly link me to literature or video? On flop, turn or river, usually flop we have hand w/o the initiative. How much equity is needed to put in a value raise (as a general guide)? i just saw a boomer video where he said 50% equity so we raise. i've seen other vids where more like 60% is recommended as we open ourselves up to getting 3 bet, and other reasons.

      many thanks for any help
  • 5 replies
    • SvenBe
      SvenBe
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 19.04.2006 Posts: 13,468
      he tehhands,

      sorry for letting you wait. I've called one of our coaches to give you a hint on where to look for/what to consider for a value raise.
      You can also leave comments on the recent videos which will be answered by the coaches.
      Welcome in our forum by the way - I hope you have a great time here and enjoy our live coaching sessions, our hand evaluation subforum plus our coaching videos!
    • datsmahname
      datsmahname
      Global
      Joined: 23.11.2009 Posts: 1,366
      hey tehhands, Thanks Sven

      It might help to discuss why we need greater than 50% equity.

      If our opponent is value betting the turn and is going to play correctly and 3-bet with all better hands but would usually just call down with worse hands that he'll value bet then we win 3BB against his worse hands and lose 4BB against his better hands. Here we need about 57% equity to break even when raising. For value we need slightly more.

      Now, in reality he'll fold some worse hands and miss some value raises against. If he's more likely to fold worse hands then we need MORE equity. If he's more likely to miss value raises then we need LESS equity.

      Also, in reality he'll have some semibluffs that cannot fold and bluffs that cannot call profitably. His bluffs that fold increase our equity, but they do not help our case when deciding to value raise because he does not continue with those hands. His semi-bluffs however will call and the equity we have against them helps us to value raise.

      In either case when we're value raising we always need greater than 50% equity, but the upper parameter is usually 66% equity. The truth is something in the middle.
    • tehhands
      tehhands
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2012 Posts: 6
      Hi datsmahname,

      That was an excellent response! Sharpened my understanding of the game! I'm still a little confused how you reached the upper parameter of 66% equity?

      I have a further, related question. How does the possibility of getting 4 bet effect our decision to 3bet PF? Equities needed to 3bet a PFR when not in the BB is widely discussed (often/usually less than 50%). However, I'm wondering how much equity is generally needed to 3bet a steal or non-steal from the BB? I suppose you'd need significantly more than 50%?

      Many thanks for any help.
    • tehhands
      tehhands
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.03.2012 Posts: 6
      Oh, I'm also wondering if your turn advice can be extrapolated to the flop as well? I suppose you'd need slightly less equity to c-r the flop given that facing a 3bet when behind will cost you a little less than on the turn (1 small bet, not 1 big bet the times he raises flop, not turn). Though I guess the flop is slightly more complicated - he'll have a hand he can call down with less often, the pot is smaller (inducing bluffs more valuable), and balancing more important (though this discussion has no reference to balanced play at this point), etc.
    • madorjan
      madorjan
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 5,561
      Hey there,

      I definitely think there should be much more to raising or 3betting postflop than just equity, however the general guidelines should help you decide what to do. However, one thing I see many people do is using equity as excuse for bad plays (like I don't have XY% equity, therefore..., or I have XY% equity, therefore).

      Equity for preflop and flop is a very misleading thing. In theory, by equity you can call any2 against most openraises from the BB, and certainly anytwo 3ways against any range. However we're talking about hot-cold equity, which assumes we're gonna go to showdown a 100% of the times, and that's definitely not true. Your real equity (aka how many times you actually win the pot) will be massively different from the value Equilab and other equity tools are showing.

      On later streets HCEq is much more relevant, since you're gonna rarely fold on these streets, and people often have a more polarized range on these streets. However, our equity in general (against the whole range, or a calling range) will still mean little to us. We can set guidelines, like I'm always raising with 66%+ equity against a calling range, and that's fine. However valuebetting (or more like blockbetting) can be the best move even if you only have 10-15% equity against your opponent's calling range.

      I'm not saying HCEq should be ignored or anything, I just say, that even in LHE there are much more factors you have to take into account than just pure equty.

      For 3betting preflop I draw the line at around 46-7% equity, depending on the nature of the hand, but for balance reasons and because of their future implied odds, even worse hands can be good 3betting hands. From the SB I 3bet with ~43% equity. From the BB I think nowadays the standard play is not to 3bet anything against a single raiser and no limpers/coldcallers, and I definitely think that's the best play, unless your opponent is a checkback-monkey on the flop.

      Of course the chance of getting capped lowers our expected value, it happens so infrequently that it's not big of an issue at all. If it happens more frequently, your opponent has a wider range you're doing better against, so I don't think that's much of an issue. Also nowadays it's pretty standard not to cap HU also.

      --------

      On the second post: I think raising the flop represents a wider range of hands on our part, and we should do that usually. By not raising flops, you opponent can exploit you by checking turns (especially if he's IP), therefore I believe fastplaying OOP is certainly the way to go, IP it's more dependent on the board texture and your opponent.

      Now what I found also, is that on most board textures if you raise your stronger made hands (usually Middle Pair+), and your draws, you're gonna raise a so-so balanced range, which is kind of really cool, since your natural way of playing is balanced there. However if you delay your action to the turn, in theory you should have more bluffs in your range, which means you should turn pure air hands into a bluff on the turn, if you never raise the flop - and that's gonna bring less EV for your overall range there.

      I hope I could help, if you have any questions, or you didn't get something, let me know!

      Cheers,
      Madi