How deep do you have to be to fold KK pre against an aggressive opponent

    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      So I'm facing this 50/30 donkey, 3bet 17%, not particularly good but very aggressive. He has 250 blinds, I have 230. I have KK, there's much 3-betting and 4-betting going on, the third guy opts out after the donkey min-5bets.

      I look at his 5-bet and I think to myself: wow, the donkey has aces, and I shove over his 5-bet. He has aces.

      So, how deep would you have to be to fold KK against an aggressive opponent.
  • 12 replies
    • Nardiss
      Nardiss
      Gold
      Joined: 19.03.2009 Posts: 31
      definately stacking off here with 230bb against that player,if it's gets to 300bb or more you could start just call his 3bets or 4 bets instead of trying to get all in preflop.However i think such a player could stack off very deep with very marginal holdings so you just have to go with KK here
    • Jan217
      Jan217
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 626
      Idk, I think many fish only min-5bet AA there (but could 5bet bigger or even just shove with JJ+ AK - the classic 'fuck I could be beat...shove!')

      But min5bets that deep from a fish smell pretty strongly of AA, with any larger bet from him Id happily get it in.

      In this scenario I would just flat the 5bet and initially plan to set mine (pot odds+implied are enough), but if he gives any tells that he doesnt just have AA postflop then go with it. Its tough and you'll still get stacked by AA postflop often, but if you have a strong read that AA is likely you at least give yourself two set outs and two easy fold outs (an A) on the flop by flatting, and you might even get some more information.
    • JBCD71
      JBCD71
      Global
      Joined: 21.08.2008 Posts: 146
      Honestly in my opinion to shove with KK all in before pre flop is so wrong.Especially with 230 BB.You should of just called and proceeded with caution.See the flop.And if a ace comes up.Proceed with extreme caution.If theres two cards the same on the flop for example 88 or any other also proceed with extreme caution for your opponent might have a set.If its a rainbow then proceed with a three bet for a feel of what he has.If he raises it will be a tell he might have aces,depending how big the raise is.This will help you with playing kings.Believe me its helped my game.Thats my opinion.Some players might think differently.
    • phantommm92
      phantommm92
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2010 Posts: 1,464
      Originally posted by JBCD71
      Honestly in my opinion to shove with KK all in before pre flop is so wrong.Especially with 230 BB.You should of just called and proceeded with caution.See the flop.And if a ace comes up.Proceed with extreme caution.If theres two cards the same on the flop for example 88 or any other also proceed with extreme caution for your opponent might have a set.If its a rainbow then proceed with a three bet for a feel of what he has.If he raises it will be a tell he might have aces,depending how big the raise is.This will help you with playing kings.Believe me its helped my game.Thats my opinion.Some players might think differently.
      looooooooooool, post that made my day, especially this part
      Originally posted by JBCD71
      If its a rainbow then proceed with a three bet for a feel of what he has
      if you really think he's retarded aggressive, then i have no problem getting it in preflop vs 5bet, but most fish never 5bet light enough there, so calling makes sense, problem with that is, if he decided to just min5bet 65s like a pro and continues with postflop aggression, then you get owned.
    • RDKNAUF91
      RDKNAUF91
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.07.2010 Posts: 219
      Never Fold KK in low stakes especially against LAG. Of corse some % of time he has AA here but a lot % of the time you have him beat.

      And yeah how thas calling 5bet make sense. What is your line on flop then Check/fold ?????
    • Castle93
      Castle93
      Silver
      Joined: 06.06.2011 Posts: 1,458
      Flatting 5 bets to set mine, LIKE A BOSS ;) he's right though, if you think your bet but have the odds just to flat and set mine why pass it up
    • Jan217
      Jan217
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 626
      Originally posted by RDKNAUF91
      Never Fold KK in low stakes especially against LAG. Of corse some % of time he has AA here but a lot % of the time you have him beat.

      And yeah how thas calling 5bet make sense. What is your line on flop then Check/fold ?????
      It depends. Often the fish was either 'trying to induce' by min-5betting or 'trying to be super clever and play it like AA' or just has an overly wide value range. Often his betsizing and timing in relation to the flop textures will give you more information postflop on which one of these it was, and you can make some better decisions based on that information.

      If the flop comes 942 and he checks to you or checks back then clearly we can start feeling happy about our hand; if he makes a blatent value bet on A55 we have an easy fold.

      Also you will get to give up on horror flops like TJQ where literally every value hand has you beat, whereas if you get it in pre all you can do on those flops is say 'fuck!' ^^

      Of course all of this is only relevant is you really suspect his range is heavily weighted towards AA. Otherwise you lose a lot of value vs. AK (and QQ on A/K hi boards etc) and its better to just ship it in.
    • esuohdla
      esuohdla
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2011 Posts: 411
      I agree with everyone who is saying a min 5bet stinks of AA. Any bigger and I get it in pre.
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      Originally posted by fuzzyfish
      So I'm facing this 50/30 donkey, 3bet 17%, not particularly good but very aggressive. He has 250 blinds, I have 230. I have KK, there's much 3-betting and 4-betting going on, the third guy opts out after the donkey min-5bets.

      I look at his 5-bet and I think to myself: wow, the donkey has aces, and I shove over his 5-bet. He has aces.

      So, how deep would you have to be to fold KK against an aggressive opponent.
      Against this guy I would stack off 250bb pre. I guess 150bb I wouldn't even think twice and 300bb I probably wouldn't, you have to draw the line somewhere.

      Against a non-psycho I would not stack off 250bb deep with KK.

      At least you get to make a useful note on the donk and if you play him with any regularity you will be getting your 250bb back and then some.
    • BObamaJr
      BObamaJr
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2012 Posts: 232
      1000bb. Why do people even contemplate folding KK against 50/30s. Their range easily includes (if they have a high 3bet and N/A 4/5bet) QQ, AK, KK and occasionally JJ.

      Clear shove.
    • M0na1isa
      M0na1isa
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 133
      I think running to AA while holding KK in a full table is less than 1 to 20. This probably gives you the right to smash your opponent when you see your kings.
      you still got about 1 to 5 you break the aces as well. So tbh, I wouldn't sweat as much as it is anticipated in this post so far. And folding KK without a crystal clear read is unforgivable. I'm not sure how would proceeding with caution even works. against someone you don't know with no read, I'd say shove it.
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      equity win tie pots won pots tied
      Hand 0: 41.984% 04.60% 7042192 865690.00 { KdKh }
      Hand 1: 58.016% 04.60% 10061772 865690.00 { KK+, QdQs, QhQs, AdKs, AhKs }

      This is if they 5bet and go broke with 2 combos of AK and 2 combos of QQ aswell as KK+

      Its just one of those things imo.