Is this a good path for learning SnGs?

    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Hello guys and gals,
      Well I just someone who's good at SnGs to tell me if this is a good learning path to take on..

      Quick background: I used to play NLBSS and grinded my way up from 50$ PS's to ~180$.. but then took a biiiig pause, and almost forgot everything so I decided to give a SnGs a shot, and if it turns out they're not for me, I'll go back to learning BSS once again..

      My plan is to learn the PS's shoving charts sooo well, that it becomes basically a second nature to me.. THEN, I'll start to combine it with reads and try to deviate, but basically want to make sure I have to solid foundation down..

      So once I learn them well, I'l try to multitable like 4-6 tables and go from there? I have a good rakeback deal, so I think I'll make a good rakeback from it as well, and keep learning at the same time..

      Is this how it should go? I also downloaded ICM trainer and almost completed light edition.. I play 1$ 10-max at iPoker.. Yeah, rake is high (20%) but with almost 60% rakeback it turns out to be only 10% rake per sng..

      Any ideas, tricks, tips and comments? I really want to be a good SnG player one day, and my dream is to be able to grind multitabling SngS at higher stakes for living, but I'm realist, and I know this is not so easy to achieve..

      So far I played only like 8-9 SnG's and won 1st place only once, but usually finish in bubble.. I was card dead, but for sure my bubble play lacks as well.. Oh and if anyone is at similar situation as me, I'd be more than happy to talk to you over chat, and discuss strategies..

      All the best,
      -eXtreme
  • 7 replies
    • Orion801
      Orion801
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.03.2012 Posts: 84
      I play $1 10 man SnG's on iPoker as well, what's your username on there? Also where did you get that rakeback deal out of interest? The high rake makes it hard to turn a profit for me.

      I would say read up on all the sit and go articles under the strategy section that you have access to. Learn the starting hands chart as it's significantly tighter than BSS in the early and middle stages of a sit and go. Also post-flop play varies slightly as you're less likely to play draws due to chips you lose being worth more than those you gain.

      There's some good videos available as well, in particular the introduction to sit and go's by Chenny8888 helped me out a lot.

      As for the pushing charts I would say they're only really good as a starting point before you've learnt ICM properly and aren't really worth learning off by heart themselves. I would recommend finishing ICM trainer lite and then playing as many hands as possible on the full version of ICM trainer (I try to do 1000 a day) as this will give you a better understanding than following the charts and therefore allow you to make better decisions.

      Good luck and probably see you on the tables!
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Hey Orion801,
      Thanks for reply.. :) Do you have skype? I can explain the rakeback over at skype much easily while trying to stay here on topic..
      Also, my username is eXtremeXR over at iPoker..

      I recorded myself play a more-or-less a typical SnG at that stake. Can someone comment my play? Yes, it's 38min long, but you can all just skip 20 minutes in, to get to push-or-fold stage.. I would be really grateful if someone could comment.. Also, don't forget that my main aim is to learn a good multitabling strategy, so my game ought to be more tight than usual.. The reason why am playing 1 table at the moment, is because I feel I couldn't handle more.. So I know, game looks dull, but I try to imagine it while multitabling.. :)

      LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZnqUFs3b9Q

      I had a few hard folds, like AXs, and KQs and things like that, but what can I say, I played as charts suggested because I'm not that experienced to judge that spot all by myself based on stack-sizes and ICM :/

      My main strategy besides following charts when in push-or-fold stage is to keep track of "next blinds level in X minutes" (that's why I also included it into video, bottom), so that I can keep track of my BBs.. And to try to stay in range of 3-5, basically to not allow myself to drop at or below 3bb, but instead to even push with junk when in 3-5bb's range.. Is this good? That's what I heard Collin Moshman even suggested in his book..

      All the best,
      -eXtreme
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi, eXtremeACE!


      You look very dedicated and serious about poker! I hope it stays this way as this is the only way to move up. From my own experience, when I first started with SnGs, I can hundred percent assure you that the only source of info I used to improve my game was and still is- this site. Watch all the videos available for your status. Read all the articles, , work on your ICM and post hands in the evaluation forum. The last thing will allow you to get a professional opinion from our hand judges(including me) + share your thoughts with other players + you get an answer for all the situations you are uncertain about. Video or article can't cover all the situations you will be in while playing.


      I did it this way: I printed the push/fold charts, played with ICM trainer(much better than the lite one imo), watched all the vids, some even twice, read most of the articles etc. This was more than enough to beat the micros.

      Moving up on our reward system is crucial though! Higher rank enables you to have a higher quantity + deeper analysis videos/articles that will improve your game.

      I will also, ask you guys, to share your skype names via our community tool as sharing personal information on public forums is dangerous and not allowed.

      As for 3-5bb's range- usually don't push junk. I've read Collin's book some time ago as well and although is a really good starting point, some things are outdated now imo. Loosing fold equity is bad, but making a huge minus EV push by shoving any 2 or total junk is much, much worse! It depends on game flow, eff. stack sizes, players left etc. Usually, the more fold equity we have, the more hands we can push.

      Cheers!
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      As for you video:


      min 25:05- I push the A7s there from the HJ always for 7bb. I shove any suited Ace. Pay attention though that the CO is super short, which if we were a bit deeper(his stack is a smaller part of ours), would mean, that I will "exclude" him and push my CO range there. Rest seems fine tbh, although I might have missed a hand. I would suggest that you mark all the hands you are unsure about using Holdem Manager and post em in our evaluation forums.
    • Orion801
      Orion801
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.03.2012 Posts: 84
      Originally posted by eXtremeACE
      Hey Orion801,
      Thanks for reply.. :) Do you have skype? I can explain the rakeback over at skype much easily while trying to stay here on topic..
      I'm afraid I don't really use Skype. You could send me a private message using this forum though?
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      First off, thank you kurrkabin for kind and motivating words. :)
      I guess I should start by posting more hands in evaluation forum.. Out of curiosity, can I, instead of posting a hand, create a thread with, regular title ie. "KQ shorthanded on bubble" and in thread link to a video of that game, along with time of that hand happening? Like.. KQ hand @ 23:22 min..

      Just wondering, since I'm going to upload videos anyway (that way I can ask a few other guys for their opinion aswell) so I could do that.. I don't know if for coaches it would be more tedious, or more joyful to watch..

      As for 3-5bb's range- usually don't push junk.
      Alright, this is new for me, but makes sense.. I mean, I was never happy actually pushing almost ATC when I was in between of 3-5bb's range, but I always thought that was +ev play and I should just play it..

      Usually, the more fold equity we have, the more hands we can push.
      Isn't it, the more fold equity we have (ie the more chips, chips = fold equity, along with table image and other factors right?) the more we can risk losing, and therefore should push a tighter range, while when we're shortstacked (ie small fold equity) we have a little to lose, and there for can push with a much looser range? Just asking, seems contradictory to what you wrote, but I swear I've read it that way..

      All in all, thanks kurrkabin for such a detailed reply! :) Btw I'm from Serbia, I've read your SNG blog for a little while and found a few other Serbs on it, and noticed that you were listening to Mile Kitic - now that's so -ev move :D

      Orion801,

      I've added you as a friend so that we can PMs each other about rakeback and stuff, accept me. :)

      Best Regards,
      -eXtremeACE
    • kurrkabin
      kurrkabin
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.10.2010 Posts: 5,976
      Hi again!


      And you are welcome!

      Fold equity doesn't depend only on the chips we have, but also what the effective/average stack sizes at the tables are. F.e. 4-handed, we are in the CO with 3,4bb. SB and BB are tight fishy opponents that have both 5bb. Our FE in this case should be a lot more since it's a big portion of their stack, it's bubble-they tighten up as they want to finish ITM + they don't understand pot odds, so our FE should be higher than if we f.e. were pushing 3bb into 20bb SB and BB in the same bubble scenario. Having 5bb is very different from having 3bb. However, many factors play role and it will be impossible to analyze every single one without missing something. Usually though- yes, the shorter we are, the more risk we are willing to take, but other stacks play role, ICM plays role, table image plays role etc. Pushing total garbage with 3-5bb, once again, is usually no good!

      As for posting hands- there is a procedure that needs to be followed, so we have to convert the HH and post it in a certain format. Video will be no good in this case. There is a link for more info-Click

      Cheers!


      P.s :s_biggrin: :s_biggrin: :s_biggrin: to Mile Kitic thing. Gola Gola is also nice though!