Hellmuth flops full house and loses.

    • Simon3501
      Simon3501
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      Joined: 20.04.2008 Posts: 5
      I've been taking some bad beats recently so it was nice to see that it happens to the best of them. In last nights premier league (Ch4 in U.K.) Phil Hellmuth raised with A 5 and was called by Andy Black with 9 9. The flop came A 5 5, full house to PH which he checked, AB also checked. 9 came on the turn. PH checks again, AB raises, PH re raises, AB goes all in, PH says "Have you got 9's full?" and reluctantly calls. AB takes all PH's chips. I suppose, being critical, you could say he shouldn't have raised pre flop with A 5, but I'd say when you flop a full house if anyone out draws you then it's a bad beat.
  • 21 replies
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      He was close to laying down the full house, but I have never seen such a hand layed down.
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
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      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      I haven´t seen it. Do you have a link to the video?

      Best regards,
      TribunCaesar
    • HennieP
      HennieP
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      Joined: 15.05.2008 Posts: 73
      Lol, I can just imagine Phil going nuts and saying "How can he call my raise with pocket 9's?! Everyone thinks they can just call me when I raise."
    • helemaalnicks
      helemaalnicks
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      Joined: 21.09.2007 Posts: 7,195
      hes a donkey. Nice slowplay sir. The way you tell it, it's not a bad beat, just horrible play from uberdonkey hellmuth.
    • matkov
      matkov
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      Joined: 15.11.2007 Posts: 202
      nobody has a link to the video ?
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      Cant find the video, I watched it on TV.
    • p0kerQT
      p0kerQT
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,300
      i saw that too... phil helmuth's doin soo bad in premier league poker, he woulda definitely won the pot if he bet on the flop coz i cant see andy black chasing a 2 outter... unless he put PH on a total bluff, if he had AA on that flop I'd understand but 5's full isn't exactly a MoNsTeR hand that can't be drawn out on. It's funny every time phil loses coz he goes off whining that he's better than everyone at the table :)
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i don't really get why phil doesn't bet the flop.. i mean if i was holding KQ high i would cbet a dry board like A55, so why not do it with a monster and hope AB floats him..

      money put in ahead:
      0$
    • G1lius
      G1lius
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      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      He can only get money from andy by betting if he has an Ace, and there are only 2 Aces in the deck left.
      He can only get beat if andy checks behind on the flop, has a pocketpair AND hits his 2-outer in the turn...

      I see more EV in checking the flop then betting the flop
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      Originally posted by G1lius
      He can only get money from andy by betting if he has an Ace, and there are only 2 Aces in the deck left.
      He can only get beat if andy checks behind on the flop, has a pocketpair AND hits his 2-outer in the turn...

      I see more EV in checking the flop then betting the flop
      errrrm, considering cbetting A high flops with air after being the pre flop aggressor is 1. standard, 2. expected, 3. +EV, hence he can always hope/expect AB goes for a float with air.

      check flop check/raise turn just smells like 5s OR aces full. phil should've just played his hand face up
    • G1lius
      G1lius
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      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      You should watch more televised poker imo
      You'll often see a check with air on such flops. You also see a check/raise with air on the flop on such flops...
      Especially Phill who checks a lot of flops anyway...

      Betting out with the nuts (or close too) is also standard, expected and +EV.
      They both know he should bet the flop no matter what, so it has no use except for building a pot, making variance bigger.

      Betting out is the best thing to do, but in this case, as Phil Helmut who check a lot of flops, I see a check as a good option.
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      making variance bigger, building the pot when he's way way way ahead, etc etc ;) .

      i don't think i should watch more televised poker, IMO, b/c i want to stay a good player! ;)
    • p0kerQT
      p0kerQT
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 1,300
      it was funny coz he almost folded on the river, he said you have 99 dont you? Andy black doesnt say anything. then he put him on 67 (a straight as the river card was an 8) and calls. I think they both checked the turn if I remember right.
    • cannell555
      cannell555
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      Joined: 06.03.2008 Posts: 2,410
      I think phil pushed the river. Not 100% thought
    • PokerHammer
      PokerHammer
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      Joined: 26.08.2007 Posts: 209
      Hellmuth and players like him show what a joke the WSOP really is, and what a joke tournament poker is.

      How many bracelets does that idiot have? 11?

      Anyone can have a run of cards and get lucky at the WSOP, look at Moneymaker, Yang and the biggest idiot of them all Gold.

      NL Donkaments should be banned!!



      (Ok, I've got that off my chest) :)
    • JimmyPap
      JimmyPap
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 65
      Link to the show :
      xxxxxxxxx

      pokerbay is my source for all televised poker shows anywhere :P

      (link deleted due to linking to pirated material, read the rules)
    • G1lius
      G1lius
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      Joined: 27.10.2007 Posts: 308
      I don't think you can say 11 bracelets are a result of getting lucky...

      You can win it once by luck, you might win it twice if you get very lucky, but you can't win it 11 times without being a very good player.

      To make another statement, I think the factor luck has become bigger with the internet-players who play way more aggressive and thus bringing more variance and bigger shipstacks into tournaments.
      Standard moves are so aggressive that you can't play any small pots anymore, leaving less room for small pot poker (wich is where skill plays a bigger roll).
      When you see someone making a big laydown, it's mostly an old style pro. Why is that? Because with internet-players the pot is allready too big to fold, or the money is allready in when the scare-card hits.
      You don't see someone dodging bullets with abc-poker :)

      let's say you play this hand...
      you bet the flop, AB thinks: he's gonna bet every single hand on that flop (wich is right), and I don't think he'll 2nd barrel with air since I have to have a hand to call the flop with, so he calls.
      9 hits the turn, and you can't avoid being all in on the turn or river.
      You show hands and you go: omfg, donkaments, how can you call my flopbet, etc...
      You can't buy anything with 'I got some money in with the best hand'.
      If AB has something like 67s and hits a flushdraw or pair on the turn, Phil's gonna get more money from him. While you would've just got him to fold the flop with that hand.
      Plus Phil had the chance to fold his hand, wich he might have done if there was no straight possibility (I'm not saying he would, I'm saying he could).
    • JimmyPap
      JimmyPap
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      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 65
      Sorry about posting that link :(
      though I thought that ALL of uows non americans should have a way of watching all the poker shows..

      So.. for anyone interested, just google it :P
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
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      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      sry, there are serious fundamental flaws in phil hellmuth's strategy. i feel that in time, as more and more internet players (who are far better than live players) fill the live circuits, players like phil hellmuth will become obsolete. that being said, he is still by far better than the average live-tournament fish at the moment.

      leaks: http://www.tworags.com/blog/bond18/archive/2008/2 (no affiliate links afaik)

      he also puts in a LOT of volume at the WSOP events, and combined with a smidgeon of luck, he has 11 bracelets.

      as for your post G1lius, probably the most basic and important part of poker is that you should play big pots with big hands. if phil actually did check through to the river with bottom boat, do you not feel that he's nearly destined to win just a small pot with what is really a monster?

      and also, betting the flop could still get action from andy, who might feel that floating this board is best.
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