Mapping a thought process for a whole hand.

    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      So, I was wondering if it might help me to try and map out an "ideal system" for progressing through a hand and making some good decisions. Step by step, to help myself think through hands in game (or out of game)

      Its too complicated to make one including all scenarios so I am just going to start easy. I assume we are in position of the open raiser and beyond preflop presuming we go to flop it is Heads-Up. I'm sure modifications will be obvious to other situations. If it looks possible I may try to make a flowchart. Ok, first thing is first, preflop! Here goes;


      Preflop; One villain raises. No callers before us.

      • Villains vpip/pfr and position? Estimate a range. Is our hand better?


      If Yes;
      • Does the villain call worse hands when we 3bet? Fold to 3bet%
      • Will Villain shut down postflop in a 3bet pot if we do 3bet?
      • Is there a squeeze happy player behind us or a big fish who we want to call?


      If we can get value by 3betting we 3bet, however if we don't get so much value, our play-ability is bad or a big fish/ squeeze happy player is behind us when we have KK+ we call.

      If we don't have better hand;

      1. Villains fold to 3bet% Can we get him to fold the better hand?
      2. Is the villain vulnerable to floats or being outplayed postflop?
      3. Can we setmine or play for implieds?
      4. Is there a big fish behind us who we want to be in a hand with?
      5. Is there a squeeze happy player behind us who we don't want to get in a hand with?


      Decision starting with (a);
      We can 3bet if (d) is not true. A player (e) must also not call our raise or 4bet a lot. If we cannot 3bet examine calling or folding.

      Decision starting with (b);
      We can call and float or own him postflop If players (d) and (e) won't come along for the ride to ruin our spot. If so, go back to point (a) or fold.

      Decision starting with (c);
      "We can try set-mining if we believe villain has strong opening range and will pay us off a lot" If (d) calls we increase our implieds but if (e) is likely to squeeze we should let go.


      Ok, I think that interpretation can get us far as call, fold or 3bet for whatever reason. Before we go to flop we need to know a couple of things;

      Things to take with us to the flop

      1. Why did we call or 3bet preflop?
      2. What is our plan depending on different flop textures?
      3. What do we think villain has or is continueing with here?
      4. What is our percieved range for calling or 3betting?


      So before I go any further I want to see if anyone has any comments. Did I miss anything out or mess anything up? I'm not sure how I'm going to turn this mess into a flowchart for the whole hand to be honest, there seems to be way too much information.

      I look forwards to your input.
  • 6 replies
    • Fagin
      Fagin
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 544
      For my money I think you are, initially at least, getting overly complicated and bringing in too many "what ifs".

      I feel that it is more important to make a good decision pre flop based on the information available. Before acting on that decision however, it is important to make a plan for the remainder of the hand - I may plan to float the flop if I miss because villain usually does not 2nd barrel without a big hand. If I am setmining I will generally know how I plan to play the set if I hit, and if I miss I will also already know what my plan will be depending on board texture.

      Things can get complicated enough without trying to over think the situation, particularly on the micros where ABC poker is generally the best option and "fancy plays" tend to be counter-productive.

      At lower levels the most "ideal system" is to value bet more and bluff less.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Its fairly simple really;

      1)Do we have the better hand?

      2)Yes? Proceed. No? Only proceed with Fold Equity, Implieds or FE on later streets.

      3)Then we just look to see if there is someone behind us who would make life uncomfortable or very profitable behind us who should change our decision?

      4)Then we just quickly map out the ranges we proceed to the flop we. His and ours.


      It just comes out really complicated when I try and write it out like that :D For the record, I won't even be considering these options if I don't have a hand I like at least a bit. I'm not 3betting 72o "just because he has a high fold to 3bet"
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      well, you have to consider dynamics :D else
      Originally posted by DaPhunk
      For the record, I won't even be considering these options if I don't have a hand I like at least a bit. I'm not 3betting 72o "just because he has a high fold to 3bet"
      why not? in a vacuum if someone has like 90% fold to 3bet we can 3bet any two and shut down any flop where we don't get quads. we show our profit just by 3betting and him folding.
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      because I want to have at least a little bit of equity if called. 72s would be a bluff3bet. The other reason is that I don't want to get out of hand with bluff 3betting this guy even though its very tempting, letting go of some hands like 72o should help prevent me from letting those figures getting too high.


      On the other hand, as long as you are careful to not 3bet him too many times in a row this second point shouldn't matter anyway. We can probably just keep 3betting him till he adjust then switch gears and only 3bet TT+ AK right?
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      yes. dynamics!
      my point is that you're not accounting for that in your flowchart :P

      else we can easily use (a) to get to the conclusion that we should 3bet him with 72o all the time because we can get him to fold the better hand (which we actually can, but when we do it for the 4th time in a row...)
    • DaPhunk
      DaPhunk
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.03.2008 Posts: 2,805
      Damn you're right! Now how am I going to account for that?