[NL2-NL10] Bad Shove or bad call?

    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:

      MP2 = ($5.05)
      MP3 = ($13.68)
      CO = ($1.36)
      BU (Hero) = ($6.39)
      SB = ($6.44)
      BB = ($4.74)


      Preflop: Hero is BU with 9 :diamond: , 9. :spade:
      MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.20, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.65, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.45.

      Flop: ($1.37) 7 :club: , 8 :diamond: , 7 :heart: (2 players)
      MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.85, MP3 calls $0.85.

      Turn: ($3.07) 6 :heart: (2 players)
      MP3 checks, Hero bets $4.89(All-In), MP3 calls $4.89.

      River: ($12.85) Q :heart: (2 players)


      Final Pot: $12.85.


      Hero shows two pairs, nines and sevens(9 9).
      MP3 shows a flush, ace high(K :heart: A :heart:) .

      MP3 wins with a flush, ace high(K :heart: A :heart:) .
  • 16 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Maloco87,

      Welcome to the English NL Hand Evaluation Forum! Hopefully we will see more hands from you in the future. I hope that with our help you can improve your play and as well move up the limits. We will be waiting for the next hands and till that good luck on tables!

      Preflop: No need to 3bet in first place here cause you can't be even sure if you doing it for value vs unknown. :)

      As played
      Postflop: Exactly into those spots you put yourself with 99, you rarely get even called from worse on the turn, or do you think you could get him call with worse? That was practically one of the only combos which calls and even his call his bad of course but it's not about this. Vs his range you rarely even get value on the turn anyways from worse. But then again why do you 3bet preflop if you don't play for stacks on such a spot while having an overpair? :)

      Best Regards.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      thanks mate

      I really felt like i had the best hand here so I shove the turn to stop him seeing a cheap river to spike his over card, I also felt that even if he does call i will win with my 9's or hit my oesd, I just really don't understand how he called me with a flushdraw on the turn, that was so bad imo and but put me on tilt, i went from a $20 profit in the session to end the night only with $4 profit and i had played so well throughout

      thanks for the help and im trying hard to move up the limits ending my last 3 sessions in profit
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      Bad shove and bad call IMO. You had a decent hand which you turned into a bluff. He didn't have the odds to call but sucked out OTR.

      Also the 3-bet pre seems unneccessary.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      i don't understand why i should not 3-bet 9's

      i mean i 3-bet worse hands and the 1st raiser folds most of the time
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Maloco87
      i don't understand why i should not 3-bet 9's

      i mean i 3-bet worse hands and the 1st raiser folds most of the time
      Cause it's not MTT or SnG where you can 3bet for value, it's 100BB game and you can't be sure if you even get called from worse. :)
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      ok ill take your word for it maybe im just too used to playing MTT and sng's and need to change my play for cash games

      here is another example of me 3-betting pre-flop, what are your thoughts on this

      $0.02/$0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (6 handed)

      Known players:

      MP2 = ($5.54)
      MP3 = ($3.55)
      CO = ($7.68)
      BU = ($1.38)
      SB (Hero) = ($6.07)
      BB = ($4.00)


      Preflop: Hero is SB with J :diamond: , J. :spade:
      2 folds, CO raises to $0.20, BU folds, Hero raises to $0.65, BB folds, CO calls $0.45.

      Flop: ($1.35) 5 :diamond: , T :spade: , K :spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks.

      Turn: ($1.35) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.75, CO raises to $1.50, Hero calls $0.75.

      River: ($4.35) 8 :club: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50.

      Final Pot: $7.35.

      Hero shows two pairs, jacks and fives(J J).
      CO shows a pair of fives(A :diamond: 7 :diamond:) .

      Hero wins with two pairs, jacks and fives(J J).

      Looking at this again i may have played the hand badly but what about the 3-bet preflop
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      Originally posted by Maloco87
      i don't understand why i should not 3-bet 9's

      i mean i 3-bet worse hands and the 1st raiser folds most of the time
      If you 3-bet to get folds because they usually fold, then 3-bet rubbish instead and flat call with 99 to get value from them. These guys are only calling your 3-bet when they crush your 99.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      Yeah I know what you mean, but to be fair in that hand i got good value out of it, the villian just made a bad call and got lucky, I would have been happy to take the pot down on the turn, thats why i shoved.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Maloco87
      Yeah I know what you mean, but to be fair in that hand i got good value out of it, the villian just made a bad call and got lucky, I would have been happy to take the pot down on the turn, thats why i shoved.
      It's still whole different story either you are 3betting with 99 or JJ. :)
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      your not really helping me here Veriz
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Maloco87
      your not really helping me here Veriz
      How can help you then?
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      Originally posted by Maloco87
      Yeah I know what you mean, but to be fair in that hand i got good value out of it
      So what? I've made questionable plays before and got good value from them. That doesn't make them correct.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      all you have said is that i shouldn't 3 bet 99, i mean i don't think i done any thing wrong in the hand, but it looks like i shouldn't 3 bet 99 preflop thats ok, but postflop i think i play it correct the villian just gets very lucky.

      and i asked you what you thought of the JJ hand and you say your either 3-betting 99 or JJ 'smiley face' that does not help me

      are you saying i should only ever 3 bet JJ,QQ,KK,AA??? or should i just play passive and let people in to hit there outs?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      all you have said is that i shouldn't 3 bet 99, i mean i don't think i done any thing wrong in the hand, but it looks like i shouldn't 3 bet 99 preflop thats ok, but postflop i think i play it correct the villian just gets very lucky.

      and i asked you what you thought of the JJ hand and you say your either 3-betting 99 or JJ 'smiley face' that does not help me

      Why I didn't really speak about JJ hand is the main reason I didn't assume that you are really hoping that I will continue analyzing all the hands you post into this thread. Whole thread would just get too long if you start posting every single hand into here. That's also why forum has the rules to keep mainly 1 hand per thread so we could concentrate on one specific hand.

      I gave my point of few that I'd rather 3bet with hand like JJ than 99 cause with JJ you could still do it for value even vs unknown but with 99 you can't do that. From what worse you getting called? There ain't that many hands.

      Also if you scroll up to my evaluation you will see there that I mentioned that why you shouldn't be 3betting with 99. Postflop also I gave my point of view and you just keep pushing that your play was correct just cause you saw his hand. But in vacuum do you ever see him calling with worse there?

      are you saying i should only ever 3 bet JJ,QQ,KK,AA??? or should i just play passive and let people in to hit there outs?

      I am not going to say you when or why we are 3betting cause that would mainly depend on a lot of stuff as villain vs we doing it, position we have, opponents stack, what kind of dynamics we had vs him and many more. There are a lot of articles for you to read from you get all the information you are looking for.

      What you are trying to get here is that I tell you what to do with the hand and why and when you can 3bet and with what you can 3bet but that's not cash games which we playing 100BB. Always "depends". Of course KK/AA can easily be said oh always a 3bet, with many other hands it's always going to be "depends". It's whole different game for cash where you playing 100BB, you can't pick just some default lines which are always going to work out. Neither I doubt that it's with Sng/MTTs.
    • Maloco87
      Maloco87
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2011 Posts: 514
      I understand now mate i thought about it a bit more and by me 3 betting 99 if he is playing AK he is never folding that hand most likely and by 3 betting and him calling if an A or K comes on the flop I have invested more money into the pot which may make it harder for me to get away for especially if i c bet the flop

      Im sorry for making this thread so long, that wasn't the plan!lol

      thanks for your help, i will post a few more troublesome hands as i encounter them
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      It's not about that but you also have to ask how many worse hands continue there if you 3bet. What's your plan if he 4bets you? You said you doing it for value but do you also plan to go broke then cause that's usually the plan if you 3betting 99 for value. At least I would do it so. If not then I'd rather play postflop for overpair or a set.