2+2 article about 5CD

  • 10 replies
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      There was a great "Bigpooch" comment to this somewhere, but I can't find it since 2+2 forum is closed now.
    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Was his comment positive or negative?
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Originally posted by Borisian
      Was his comment positive or negative?
      It's hard to get "positive" Bigpooch comment on whatever you write about 5cd ;) I can give you my thoughts if you don't mind weak English. Well, if you follow this you'll be a winner on 1/2$ and even higher (unless you seat down with table full of Ukrainian regulars :) ) so I can't tell that this article is bad.
      I was exchanging some PMs with David a.k.a. "four-flush" and he seems to be a very competent player but his calculation are a bit wrong.

      Table 1:
      Open limping... :f_frown:
      He suggest you to open limp with QQ and KK utg, why not JJ?
      Because by limping you're putting 1bb to 1,5bb pot so any hand that is 1/(1+1,5)*100%=40% favourite predraw is worth open limping.
      OTOH if you want to open raise you're risking 2bb to win 1,5bb so you need a hand that is 2/(1,5+2)*100%=~57% favourite predraw, so David suggest you to open limp with a hand that is ~40-57% favourite. But he forgot that by open limping you give other players good odds to play draws and BB can outdraw you for free with a hand like AK or weak pair. He also doesn't mention nothing about side cards(kickers) and some others factors:
      If players notice that you open limp with 66-88 from BU (and never with better hands!) they will raise you very light (even with 77!)
      Of course it want happen at passive micro-stakes, but if you move up and follow this charts you will simply get overrun by good players, so I suggest you to learn proper poker from the very beginning and use raise or fold strategy. Actually you don't need a hand that is 57% favourite to open raise profitably, many times players behind will fold the best hand or at least won't reraise you when they are ahead, so open raising standards are a bit lower than what David suggest.

      SBvsBB is a bit more complicated but raising only 22+ (~50%) is too low.
      Optimal frequency is around ~62% (2/3 - oop play) so raising with AK/AQJ and many draws is standard. Complete(limp) with just an Ace is ok against passive BB that won't raise you with medium pair and semibluffs.
      If I somehow know that SB is open raising 22+ and complete Ahigh then I would raise any5(yes, even 87432) since 2/3 of the time (draw 3 to AX) he doesn't have a hand to call my bet postdraw (free $$$)

      Table 2: Calling against One Opponent who Calls (Bets) $1
      I'd guess It's called "overlimping", well it makes sense but against opponent that are NEVER open raising :s_confused:
      He suggest to overlimp with QQ against players that limp with 99+ that is with 99, with AA, with 2 pairs, with trips, with straight/flush/FH/quads etc., so It's only usefull against players with stats X/0 (vpip/pdr) :)

      Table 3: Calling against One Opponent who Opens (Raises) $2
      Ok first BIG mistake is calling outside the BB with AA against player that open raise KK+ (that's common mistake on every stakes). What's more he suggest you to call with AAK against KK+ ! If someone is open raising KK+ you do not want to have a King in your hand, since now It's less likely that opp start with KK (the only hand that you beat)! If someone open raise from CO with JJ+ and you are on BU with AA432 It's clear 3-bet, but with AAKQJ you are better just calling. Against KK+ range AA is worth calling only on BB (It's still better to fold AAK) unless maybe players behind will join in with very weak pairs. The rest seems to be OK, It's good to use a rule to be one notch above opener worst to defend BB, and two notch above to defend SB (actually you don't need an Ace in your hand) This is close to odds to call a steal raise (1,5/5=~30% for SB and 1/4,5=~22% for BB) Since bigger pair vs lower pair is usually ~77-23 favourite It's ev- to defend BB with worse pair then someone is open raising e.g. TT vs CO that open raise JJ+. Also you should look at your side kickers, I'm pretty sure that It's not good to defend BB with TT9 against 99+ and SB with KKQJ against JJ+ also it's not in good shape.

      Table 5: Calling against a Re-raiser
      I don't understand anything in this.
      Let's say I follow up table 1 and raise 22+ from SB(50%), BB 3-bet me and I put him on KK+ so according to this table I should call on AA+ (~10,9%) and fold ~78% of the time to his 3-bet...
      Odds to call a 3-bet are from 1:5(BBvsSB) to 1:6,5(e.g. BUvsCO, blinds fold) so even a hand as weak as 22 vs KK+ has around ~17% equity which is close to 1/(1+5) to call a BB 3-bet. Well ok, it might be submarginal if BB 3-bet only KK+ and rarely semibluff, but please not as tight as AA+
      If we open raise from BU with 99+ then any pair is worth to call a 3-bet from a blind that 3-bet KK+ not just only AA.
      If opponent is 3-betting 3322+ we clearly want to fold 5544x but KK is worth calling, because It has good chance to outplay 2pair(~27%) or trips(~11,5%), while with 5544x we only hope for FH (~8%)

      There are some others errors/misstatements:
      for example if I'm in BBvsSB spot and SB is open raising 2/3 of his hands according to table 9 I should call him with 22+ (3-bet 77+) and according to table 8 pay him off with 33+ :) With such a strategy opp is ok to value bet 66 :D

      You'll get better answer if 2+2 re-opens, I also want to read what else Bp found to be incorrect in this.
    • Borisian
      Borisian
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Thanks for the explanation, I see that I need to wait for 2+2 to reopen and then I'll have a huge amount of reading & understanding to do.

      At least I know to look out for BigPooch's posts when it comes back
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      @Huricano: Do you find anything wrong in table 4 (raising the opener)?

      When should I call a raise instead of 3bet? Pokerstrategy articles say that "when faced with a raise predraw, do not call hands you think are better, re-raise". I thought that when you play a hand outside the blinds it's better to play 3bet/fold.
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Originally posted by adr0001
      @Huricano: Do you find anything wrong in table 4 (raising the opener)?

      When should I call a raise instead of 3bet? Pokerstrategy articles say that "when faced with a raise predraw, do not call hands you think are better, re-raise". I thought that when you play a hand outside the blinds it's better to play 3bet/fold.
      3bet/fold strategy comes mainly from LHE background when It's good to have postflop initiative even if you are a bit behind in Equity (e.g. JTs SBvsBU)

      Theoretically if we want to call open raiser outside the blinds we are putting 2bb to pot 3,5bb(open raiser+blinds) so we need 2/(2+3,5)*100%=~36% equity. If you want to play 3bet or fold, you are incorrectly folding some hands that are worth calling, those from ~36% to ~46-48% equity.
      If you are on SB you only need 30% eq, so It's impossible to play 3-bet or fold without missing some $$$. E.g. if you are on SB and facing a UTG open raiser that you know he is raising only AA+ from Table 4 marginal 3bet hand is JJ22, but even 3322 is worth calling, so if you play 3bet/fold what do you do with a hands 3322-TT99?
      So I think you will miss some value by playing 3bet or fold, or on the other side you're 3betting will be too loose.

      Table 4 is very good, but that's very marginal hands.
      I'm not sure if It's ev+ to 3-bet UTG open raiser(KK+) with 7722 on HJ, especially if he knows what hands are worth capping! I'm guessing that if UTG open raise with KKA+ and you have 7722A on HJ, folding is the best options...

      And once again take a look at your side cards:
      if you noticed that BU open raise 99+ and want to 3-bet him with KK, don't do it with KK9TJ ;)
      Same rule apply to weak 2 pairs, if you are facing an early position opener you do not want King or Ace as a fifth card.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Originally posted by Huricano
      SBvsBB is a bit more complicated but raising only 22+ (~50%) is too low.
      Optimal frequency is around ~62% (2/3 - oop play) so raising with AK/AQJ and many draws is standard. Complete(limp) with just an Ace is ok against passive BB that won't raise you with medium pair and semibluffs.
      Wow -- Am I ever a super-nit.

      Thanks for your (as always) extremely helpful comments!
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 8,904
      Originally posted by Huricano
      OTOH if you want to open raise you're risking 2bb to win 1,5bb so you need a hand that is 2/(1,5+2)*100%=~57% favourite predraw, so David suggest you to open limp with a hand that is ~40-57% favourite. But he forgot that by open limping you give other players good odds to play draws and BB can outdraw you for free with a hand like AK or weak pair. He also doesn't mention nothing about side cards(kickers) and some others factors:
      If players notice that you open limp with 66-88 from BU (and never with better hands!) they will raise you very light (even with 77!)
      How do you calculate equities in 5CD?
      Is there a program for that?
      Tables on-line somewhere?

      The article mentions "Slice" -- do you use it?
    • Huricano
      Huricano
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.08.2010 Posts: 2,228
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      How do you calculate equities in 5CD?


      If you want to found equity hand vs hand simple use any 2-7 lowball calculator and invert equity ;) But if you want hand vs range e.g. AA vs JJ+ you need to divide JJ+ into categories JJ/QQ/KK/2pair/trips/straight+ and found eq for AA vs each one and then get it all together using weighted average.

      For AA vs JJ+ it's not that hard because AA vs KKQQ has the same equity like AA vs 3322 so quick calculations looks like this:

      straight+ ~12k ~1%
      trips ~33k ~11,5%
      2 pairs ~73,7k ~27%
      KK ~60k ~77%
      QQ ~60k ~77%
      JJ ~60k ~77%

      Eq = 0.01*12+0.115*33+0.27*73,7+ 3*(0.77*60) / (12+33+73,7+3*60)
      Eq = ~54%

      You can use SliceEQ to found combinations of hands
      e.g. how many there are 2pairs if we hold AAxxx, or simply count it...It's very simple:
      C(9,2)x36x(7x4+3x3+2)+9x6x3x3x(8x4+2x3+2)+ 9x6x1x1(8x4+3x3)+C(3,2)x9x(9x4+3+2)+3x3x(9x4+2x3) :D


      Of course if you add semibluffs to opp range you're overall equity is even higher.
    • adr0001
      adr0001
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.03.2008 Posts: 271
      Here is bigpooch's comment. It looks like the 2+2 article is quite bad.

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=30861714&postcount=7