just one stupid question

    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      so, i know this is pretty dumb probably, but ive been arguing with a friend about this and i wanted to ask you what the right answer is....

      lo, lets say, you hold A :heart: K :heart: on

      4 :heart: 5 :heart: 7 :heart: board.

      is it considered 2nd or 3rd nuts?

      i mean, it is the 3rd best hand you can have, right after 6:heart: 8 :heart: and 3 :heart: 6 :heart:
      but there is ofc only one 6:heart: in the deck, so it should be considered 2nd nuts right? :)
  • 34 replies
    • Wriggers
      Wriggers
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.07.2009 Posts: 3,250
      3rd nuts imo.

      If someone had KK on AAK flop we could pose the same question. He could have AA or AK, but I still think we have the 3rd nuts.
    • kidzoltan
      kidzoltan
      Platinum
      Joined: 05.08.2010 Posts: 810
      Not a dumb question at all. I don't know the answer either, so let's hope someone knows for sure.
    • Jeniman
      Jeniman
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2008 Posts: 94
      I think you have the 3rd best hand possible but its the 2nd nuts possible.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by Jeniman
      I think you have the 3rd best hand possible but its the 2nd nuts possible.
      well, exactly, thats why im asking :)
    • zobupasts
      zobupasts
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      Joined: 10.04.2009 Posts: 310
      AKh is 3rd nuts here as 86h and 63h beats you.
    • Jeniman
      Jeniman
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2008 Posts: 94
      If AKh is the 3rd nuts, how can you make the 2nd nuts, that not possible,
      cause the 6h has to be in their hand.

      So i think theres no 3rd nut possible.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      nice :f_biggrin:

      i think it's the 3rd nuts but you should consider it as the 2nd nuts for all practical purposes.
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      theres 2 better combinations possible, so there are two combinations you have to consider, therefore AK is 3rd nuts, it doesnt matter that only one of them can exist at once, there are still 2 possible nuts on this board that are nuttier than your nuts.

      its just combinatorics, when you want to figure out how often you are ahead you have to consider 2 better combinations instead of one. If you had 63 on this board youd have 2nd nuts
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by fuzzyfish
      If you had 63 on this board youd have 2nd nuts
      How is this 2nd nuts? 3 :heart: 6 :heart: is the nuts since there is no way you can be beat on that flop.
    • zumpar
      zumpar
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 1,185
      but look at it this way:

      if 6:heart: 3:heart: is the nuts (whis is!) cause 6:heart: 8:heart: cant exist,
      then AK is 2nd nuts...

      and vice versa - with 6:heart: 8:heart: ...

      at the same time, there can only be 1 hand better than yours, 2 varieties, true, but just 1 hand....

      therefore, AK should be 2nd best hand
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by zumpar
      but look at it this way:

      if 6:heart: 3:heart: is the nuts (whis is!) cause 6:heart: 8:heart: cant exist,
      then AK is 2nd nuts...

      and vice versa - with 6:heart: 8:heart: ...

      at the same time, there can only be 1 hand better than yours, 2 varieties, true, but just 1 hand....

      therefore, AK should be 2nd best hand
      No AK is still the 3rd nuts because there are 2 handcombos that beat you. With 36 you have the 68 combo blocked thats why you have the nuts while with AhKh you still have to be worried about 2 other hands that have you beat and both of those hands are still possible.

      It doesn't really matter that both are not possible at the same time there are still 2 possible handcombos that have you beat.
    • Jeniman
      Jeniman
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2008 Posts: 94
      Its true that there are 2 hand combinations that have you beat 63h,68h.
      But if one exist the other cannot.

      There is no way around this, cause one hand hand blocks out the other.

      You can also say there are 2 nuthands posible at the same time.
      So AKh still be 2nd nuts.

      63h is the nuts no hand can beat you
      68h is the nuts no hand can beat you

      AKh is the 2nd nuts above beat you.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      No AK is still the 3rd nuts because there are 2 handcombos that beat you. With 36 you have the 68 combo blocked thats why you have the nuts while with AhKh you still have to be worried about 2 other hands that have you beat and both of those hands are still possible.

      It doesn't really matter that both are not possible at the same time there are still 2 possible handcombos that have you beat.
      i think this nails it, to think in terms of hand combos. A+ explanation! (yes i'm serious)

    • trickybob
      trickybob
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.07.2010 Posts: 914
      Use the word "best" instead of "nuts" and it becomes pretty clear that you have the third best hand.

      When you are combo counting the 36 and 68 count as two combos.

      AK is the third best hand here and as such is the third nuts.

      If you want to get really picky, the nuts is an absolute term and as such the second nuts cannot ever actually exist. It's an oxymoron.

      The phrase should be - second to the nuts.

      I'm not advocating that becomes common use and everyone understands the term the second nuts, so it's fine.

      But, I think the problem is more one of semantics than a poker issue.
    • mrbeer9999
      mrbeer9999
      Basic
      Joined: 11.12.2010 Posts: 182
      It's 3rd nuts, this is not even open to debate...except as stated above it could be more properly stated as "3rd to the nuts" or whatever.
    • Jeniman
      Jeniman
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.04.2008 Posts: 94
      Originally posted by trickybob
      If you want to get really picky, the nuts is an absolute term and as such the second nuts cannot ever actually exist. It's an oxymoron.
      I agree with this and thats the whole point, there is no 2nd nuts out there.
    • fuzzyfish
      fuzzyfish
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.01.2010 Posts: 862
      youre right Matej, didnt think
    • GodlikeRoy
      GodlikeRoy
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      Joined: 13.10.2010 Posts: 337
      I would say it's the 3rd nuts.
    • fruktpuff
      fruktpuff
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 3,982
      I'd also like to say 3rd.

      And as stated above, if you were to hold 6 :heart: 3 :heart: you could consider it the nuts as you block the true nuts.

      But when only holding A :heart: K :heart: we worry about 2 combinations, and whether they include the same card or not is irrelevant.
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