Practicing HU against Bots; effective?

    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      This is a question for advanced HU players.

      I'm beginning NL HUSNG and played some games. I realized that I needed to work on my game. I want to be able to play a mathematically correct game. For this I realized best way is to practice against a bot. (If you have other ideas to work on the math of the game please tell me.)

      I am going to practice against Sparbot around 20k hands tonight; apparently it plays perfect game of poker. Okay I know it can be exploited. (Any strategy which does not adapt or tries to play optimal in HU can be exploited.) But it should train me to "feel" the mathematics of the HU.
      The problem is it plays only FL.

      Will my practice be effective? What are the differences between FL and NL?
      And any good places for learning HUSNG for free? (don't mention HUSNG and DC or 2p2)
      I really want to be very good fast and am willing to work hard.

      Any good books on HUSNG? Am working on Mersenary HUSNG book. Its swell. Collin Moshman's HU book is irrelevant. Any other good books?
      Also need to work directly on the game's HU maths. Any articles, sites etc?
  • 29 replies
    • Tarhonya
      Tarhonya
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      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 694
      short answer: no.

      NLHU has nothing to do with FLHU.
    • pavels4444
      pavels4444
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      Joined: 09.09.2010 Posts: 1,539
      Originally posted by kruger32
      I realized that I needed to work on my game. I realized best way is to practice against a bot.
      LOL
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by pavels4444
      Originally posted by kruger32
      I realized that I needed to work on my game. I realized best way is to practice against a bot.
      LOL
      You lame douche, don't select quote me to make me look like a idiot.
      Read the whole post. I said to play a mathematically perfect game I need to practice against bots.

      If you have nothing to contribute get the F outta here. Please don't bother replying.

      Tarhonya, could you please elaborate.
      Do the hand ranges change significantly?
    • ArkhamAsylum
      ArkhamAsylum
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      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 527
      Rise of the machines :f_eek:
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      It kinda sounds to me like practicing for a chess by playing checkers. If you gonna practice flhu, why not play flhu as well?
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      It kinda sounds to me like practicing for a chess by playing checkers. If you gonna practice flhu, why not play flhu as well?
      Yeah guess you're right.


      Well, I don't really want to play FLHU. I don't want to finish my roll playing NLHU so I wanted to practice against bot. Before I played cash games I played extensively against bots. It really helped me understand the concept of playing tight. That saved me some money (it would be a lot if it was higher stakes) in the tables.

      Back to the main question : Will I get a better understanding of the math involved in the NLHU game if I practice FLHU against bots or will it just confuse me?
    • Tarhonya
      Tarhonya
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      Joined: 18.07.2010 Posts: 694
      HU is all about adapting to your opponent and exploiting them. But the thing is that opponents will do the same, will adapt to you. But that results them playing slightly differently, so you'll need to adapt some more, and so on and on.
      That is why a bot is practically useless for this purpose.

      In fact, I believe that playing against bots instead of humans has no positive value whatsoever.

      The one-size-fits-all strategy you're looking for doesn't exist.
      Don't waste your time with bots and don't complicating things, just go and play the micros against real people and keep learning.
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Originally posted by kruger32
      Will I get a better understanding of the math involved in the NLHU game if I practice FLHU against bots or will it just confuse me?
      I think it's more likely to confuse you. If you don't want to practice from real money just ask a friend to play you play money HUNL with both of you agreeing to play as seriously as possible. preferably buy in shorter as well to get a more like HUSNG feel.
    • Borisian
      Borisian
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      Play a STT on Poker academy and set number of players to 2 with a random opponent, this should give you a feel for things.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by Tarhonya
      HU is all about adapting to your opponent and exploiting them. But the thing is that opponents will do the same, will adapt to you. But that results them playing slightly differently, so you'll need to adapt some more, and so on and on.
      That is why a bot is practically useless for this purpose.

      In fact, I believe that playing against bots instead of humans has no positive value whatsoever.

      The one-size-fits-all strategy you're looking for doesn't exist.
      Don't waste your time with bots and don't complicating things, just go and play the micros against real people and keep learning.
      I do understand that there is no single strategy. I wrote it in the OP
      "Any strategy which does not adapt or tries to play optimal in HU can be exploited."

      I have been playing about 25 $1 games and am actually winning (I am not saying I am a winning player so please don't say stuff like "Oh, play 500 games first"). The problem is I play like a total maniac. I raise 100% button, c-bet air and 3bet often. Play wild hands out of position. Nevertheless, I pay attention to opponents strategy and try to exploit it too. I use my image to give me an edge. Players get pissed after having to fold a lot and tilt and start jamming. And I trap them.
      I have no idea what's going on half the time. I pay attention to pot odds, but don't put hand ranges in % (I count it like : "He cannot have AK etc..."), don't think in terms of EV and don't know if I should jam A4o first hand. I rely on gut-feelings and focus solely on psychology. Thus, I want to improve the mathematical part in my game.


      I am going through DC HUSNG videos and there they give you some interesting ideas. They talk about "General Strategy" or readless strategy. Things that are EV+ regardless of your opponents range and your percieved range.

      I wanted to try these things on a bot. I want to evaluate the EV of playing different hands OOP and on the button. And see if there was a different. Find out what should be the most basic raising hand ranges.

      There are many other things too which can be tried on a bot.
      By, configuring betting ranges, folding ranges and bluffing ranges you can try to form your own counter strategies against TAGs, LAGs, Weak-passives etc. This is not possible playing against real player. (Or at least it is very very expensive)

      So my question is, are FL and NL completely different in this regard? Does mathematical strategy against donks, LAGs, and TAGs change between these two games? Against a same opponent does strategy change dramatically in FL and NL? If it does, what are the differences?

      And how did you guys learn HU except playing on the tables?
    • RDKNAUF91
      RDKNAUF91
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      Joined: 20.07.2010 Posts: 219
      No offense but if you cant tell where is the big difference between NL and FL you need to learn alot. Just start to read NL Big stack strategy here. Its mostly for ring games but you will get the good feel about the game.
    • ArkhamAsylum
      ArkhamAsylum
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      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 527
      He was asking about heads up, not full ring BSS :f_p:
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by RDKNAUF91
      No offense but if you cant tell where is the big difference between NL and FL you need to learn alot. Just start to read NL Big stack strategy here. Its mostly for ring games but you will get the good feel about the game.
      No offense but was asking about HU. Please read the title and OP.
      If you did know I was talking about HU, you need to learn a lot.
    • mirked
      mirked
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      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 605
      Originally posted by kruger32
      Originally posted by RDKNAUF91
      No offense but if you cant tell where is the big difference between NL and FL you need to learn alot. Just start to read NL Big stack strategy here. Its mostly for ring games but you will get the good feel about the game.
      No offense but was asking about HU. Please read the title and OP.
      If you did know I was talking about HU, you need to learn a lot.
      RDK has a point. If you can't tell the difference you should play 10-max or 6-max tables to get a hang of the game. Study basic BSS strategy.
      By the way, RDK didn't mentioned you didn't play HU.

      No offense but it seems like you need to learn alot. The main difference is you can ONLY bet the predecided amount of money in FL. Think about how that is affecting the game.

      Don't take it personally and go in defence mode, I'm just trying to help you
    • ArkhamAsylum
      ArkhamAsylum
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      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 527
      I think you two need to stop posting here in this thread if you keep just trying to say the silly remark how he needs to learn a lot and keep ignoring his hu questions and telling what he should play.

      HE IS NOT ASKING ABOUT BSS OR YOUR OPINION ON WHAT GAME TYPE HE SHOULD BE PLAYING.

      IF you two are so knowledgeable on HU tell him about it and leave out the rest. It seems from a outsiders perspective the YOU NEED TO LEARN A LOT stuff in not needed nor helpful and could even be a way to upset the op.

      Stay on topic. :D
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Why study BSS strat when it doesn't even convert well for a sng format, more so for a HUSNG one. That'd be totally pointless if OP has access to HUSNG, DC etc. (HUSNG has everything u could rly need tbh) Even learning HUNL cash strat wouldn't help much because of stack depth difference etc.
    • mirked
      mirked
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      Joined: 22.02.2009 Posts: 605
      Originally posted by ArkhamAsylum

      HE IS NOT ASKING ABOUT BSS OR YOUR OPINION ON WHAT GAME TYPE HE SHOULD BE PLAYING.


      Stay on topic. :D
      Sorry, my bad about that. I tried to help him. I can see how my post can look douchy but thats not how I meant it to be.
      I believe RDK did the same(?)

      The big difference is the bet size. If you think about that and how it changes the strategy, incuding the mathematical you should be able to figure out if FLHU is good to practise or not.

      I think it will do good if you sit down and write down what the difference between FLHU and NLHU but also what is similar between them.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Okay I'm sorry everyone for being such an AO. I know you are trying to help me but...
      This thread is hopeless.

      I fully understand difference between FL and NL.

      Study basic BSS strategy.
      How the hell will it help me decide whether practicing mathematical HU against FL bots will be +EV for my game? Studying BSS would be a bigggggg waste of time. (BTW I already know it) At least studying FL HU I'll learn to read opponent cards, make 3 bets and c-bets correctly. So thanks for nothing.

      And thanks to the following people :
      Tarhonya
      NightFrostaSS
      for actually answering the question.

      Special thanks to:
      Borisian
      for actually understanding what I meant. I am going to spar all night against spar bot tonight in PA.

      Ultra Thanks to:
      Arkham!
      You helped me turn from a drug taking (LSD) Homeless guy to a winning poker player.

      And the big answer is:
      I think purely mathematically there is little difference between FL and NL strategy except bet sizings. HU is all about opponents and except the shoving strategies; both seem to have the same mathematical feel. Yes the overall strategy is dramatically different, and one cannot get better by mastering another. Nevertheless, opening ranges are the same (aren't they?)A +EV play (keeping all the same factors constant) in FL will be +EV play in NL too. And a donk play will be donk in both.

      Please fee free to correct me. I think I'm wrong too. And please people posts link to articles, threads etc to show me that I'm wrong. Don't go "LOL, learn the game!"
      Please make posts pertaining only to the last paragraph. Please.
    • Borisian
      Borisian
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      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 947
      I'd still play a random NL bot rather than FL.
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