Losing money due to bad beats/suckouts

    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      I play mostly TAG, sometimes LAG, but that's not why I'm losing money. I'm playing on Dafapoker with the $50 starting capital, and here is how it went: 1st day, won $3, 2nd day, won $4 (to $7), third day onward I've been losing money all the way until now (10th day). And I'm not losing money because I'm calling with bottom pair or anything, I'm losing money because my 2 pairs are beaten by sets/trips, my full houses by quads, flushes by full houses, KK by AA, etc.

      Some examples:

      IPoker, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      MP: $3.29 (164.5 bb)
      CO: $4.46 (223 bb)
      BTN: $2.93 (146.5 bb)
      SB: $2.85 (142.5 bb)
      Hero (BB): $1.92 (96 bb)
      UTG: $1.06 (53 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Kh Kc
      2 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.14, CO calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.29) 3c Qs Jc (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.22, CO calls $0.22

      Turn: ($0.73) Jd (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $0.44, Hero calls $0.44

      River: ($1.61) Jh (2 players)
      Hero bets $1.12, CO calls $1.12

      Results: $3.85 pot ($0.25 rake)
      Final Board: 3c Qs Jc Jd Jh
      CO showed Js Qc and won $3.60 ($1.68 net)
      Hero mucked Kh Kc and lost (-$1.92 net)


      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      Hero (BB): $0.66 (16.5 bb)
      CO: $6.92 (173 bb)
      BTN: $3.94 (98.5 bb)
      SB: $2.35 (58.8 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with 6s 3c
      2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.08) 6h 3s 5h (2 players)
      SB bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.12, SB calls $0.08

      Turn: ($0.32) Qs (2 players)
      SB bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.50 and is all-in, SB calls $0.34

      River: ($1.32) Th (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Results: $1.32 pot ($0.08 rake)
      Final Board: 6h 3s 5h Qs Th
      Hero mucked 6s 3c and lost (-$0.66 net)
      SB showed 5d Qh and won $1.24 ($0.58 net)


      IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $1.28 (32 bb)
      UTG: $14.55 (363.8 bb)
      MP: $4.12 (103 bb)
      Hero (CO): $0.82 (20.5 bb)
      BTN: $4.94 (123.5 bb)
      SB: $4.30 (107.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with Qs Kh
      UTG folds, MP calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.12, 3 folds, MP calls $0.08

      Flop: ($0.30) 6h 5d Ks (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $0.20, MP calls $0.20

      Turn: ($0.70) 8d (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $0.50, MP calls $0.50

      River: ($1.70) 5s (2 players)

      Results: $1.70 pot ($0.11 rake)
      Final Board: 6h 5d Ks 8d 5s
      MP showed 7h 4h and won $1.59 ($0.77 net)
      Hero mucked Qs Kh and lost (-$0.82 net)

      (This hand was against a very loose fish whose VP$IP is close to 100, so I figured my top-pair-high-kicker is solid)

      I know bad beats and suckouts are evenly distributed to every player in the long run (mathematics, huh) but after 2000+ hands on Dafapoker, I dare say that for all my encounters with them at least 80% feature me on the losing end.

      Basically, when I'm playing, everytime I have a hand, either nobody has anything and I can't get value, or somebody has something better and I lose a lot trying to get value.

      ><
  • 43 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hello fterh,

      I can see you don't always have 100bb at the table. Are you not playing BSS? If you are playing short or midstack strategy let me know so I move the thread to the right section.

      Second of all, 2,000 hands is a very and I mean VERY small sample size. If you browse a bit through the blogs section you will see winning players losing or being breakeven over tens of thousands of hands. You have a selective memory like everyone but in order to be successfull in poker you must try and think clearly.

      Since you are just starting out, you have to focus 100% on learning and the results will come. You use Bankroll Management so that while you reduce the risk of going broke to a minimum. This means it's just a matter of time and effort before you win. Without putting in the time improving though, you will not start winning in the long run.

      The hands you posted are nothing to be disheartened about. Last two hands are played well given your very short stack.

      About the first hand I do have some things to tell you that could improve your game. Preflop you should 3bet bigger, to about 9-11bb. Your sizing is on the low side and it might make you struggle to get stacks in postflop.
      On the flop, your cbet is great, sizing is also good. On the turn though, you should continue betting. On that card he is not folding Qx, he is not folding TT, AK, AT, KT, etc. Bet for value and prepare to shove all good rivers. When that river comes I like that you shoved even if he had the initiative since you get value from all Qx and maybe even TT-99 finds a call.

      Hope to see you around more with good results!

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      All these hands took place a while into the game, so I guess it happens such that I was down when they happened.

      Thanks for the critique, I appreciate it! :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by fterh
      All these hands took place a while into the game, so I guess it happens such that I was down when they happened.

      Thanks for the critique, I appreciate it! :)
      It's always easier to evaluate hands when you have cooled down or from an outside view than in the heat of the moment.

      Continue working on your game, post hands, actively discuss strategy and you will see the results improve drastically.
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      Just yesterday I could've won a lot of money (relative to my BR) had I played unreasonably, because the river cards were just perfect for me. But I didn't. I also had a guy play unreasonably against me and sucking out on the river so he took my stack with minor odds of that happening. I did what I thought was right at the moment and ended up with a losing day. But here's the thing - I go over some of those hands today and I see I played them correctly. In fact - I wish I have some of those hands all the time! :)

      So I don't let my emotions and thoughts like "seriously? what the hell?!" run me down. Whenever I have a big hand I go over it immediately! It doesn't matter if I won or lost - I go through it again to see if I have played it well. That's how I put focus on playing better and long term view and for a couple of months I went on tilt only once and called it quits for that day. So I'm happy I can keep playing this game with my very small BR built from 0. :)

      Because that's why I play the game - to have fun and keep playing it for free. :)

      EDIT:
      Also, when you play a hand - try to keep thinking what could the villain be calling/raising you with? Because in my modest experience in microstakes, players don't bluff so often. And if they do, you can see it from the way they play their hands. I lost my BR at Party because I didn't ask myself that question. I kept saying to myself "Yeah, right, you got a lucky river!" and losing money because they actually did catch that lucky river. And it would affect my game. But then I came to senses and managed to do something on Stars. Some tracking software is also very helpful in keeping track of your opponents and their style of play. I wish you good luck at the tables!
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      IPoker, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $5 (250 bb)
      Hero (UTG): $0.93 (46.5 bb)
      MP: $1.03 (51.5 bb)
      CO: $3.89 (194.5 bb)
      BTN: $2.41 (120.5 bb)
      SB: $5.72 (286 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with Js As
      Hero raises to $0.06, MP folds, CO calls $0.06, BTN calls $0.06, 2 folds

      Flop: ($0.21) 2h 6c 5h (3 players)
      Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

      Turn: ($0.21) 9h (3 players)
      Hero bets $0.17, CO folds, BTN calls $0.17

      River: ($0.55) 2s (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.36, BTN raises to $0.81, Hero folds

      Results: $1.27 pot ($0.08 rake)
      Final Board: 2h 6c 5h 9h 2s
      Hero mucked Js As and lost (-$0.59 net)
      BTN mucked and won $1.19 ($0.60 net)
      do you think villain was bluffing?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      No, I think he bluffs there like 0.01% of the time if that even. :D

      What you should do though is just give up on the hand when you have no pot equity whatsoever. Check it down, no turn or river bets multiway.

      That said, bet turn and bet river is better than bet turn and give up. If you only bet turn you let him call once with 44, 5x, 2x, etc and see showdown.
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      Hmm I don't know what is pot equity :D Or maybe I know the concept of it, just not its name.

      Anyway I discovered a really peculiar thing about my games. It's not that I cannot win, but most of the time my winnings are used primarily to recoup the losses prior to my wins.

      Like at the start of every session, I'd lose money (maybe 0.5-1 buy in?) through unsuccessful bluffs, bad beats, etc. but then eventually recover my losses by the end of the session.

      Is this normal? Don't think so, right? :(
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      I get the feeling that you have to plug some leaks right away. Just focus on playing ABC poker for a while. Maybe get a book... like Harrington on Online cash games. It will help you a lot. Or some articles here on PS.
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      Originally posted by conquistadorrr
      I get the feeling that you have to plug some leaks right away. Just focus on playing ABC poker for a while. Maybe get a book... like Harrington on Online cash games. It will help you a lot. Or some articles here on PS.
      I use HEM (trial), and every big pot I lose I'll evaluate the hand and see where I went wrong :D So I guess that's helping me correct some mistakes.

      I just ended a session when I lost big time, I picked up a gutshot nut straight draw on the flop, hit my nut straight on the river (3 clubs), villain went all-in, I called and lost to a flush.

      I don't know, I seem to get into these situations a lot where I have a monster and villain has a bigger monster and I just can't get out of them. :(
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      Originally posted by fterhI don't know, I seem to get into these situations a lot where I have a monster and villain has a bigger monster and I just can't get out of them. :(
      Those hands you shouldn't worry too much about. It's those other hands that make us lose money. So focus more on them. One of the best advice I heard for microstakes cash games is - when the lose passive player raises you or suddenly donk bets strong (they even go all in like maniacs) - they have a monster hand. So fold. As soon as I got myself disciplined to fold in those situations, the results got better. Also, I almost stopped bluffing. You need to know who you can bluff and exactly how to do that. It's almost an art if you ask me. So keep your bluffing for when it won't cost you much, you have position and they've showed weakness. Just those 2 leaks should save you a lot in microstakes.

      And like I said, just reread some articles and get yourself focused on playing ABC... with HUD - it should be just enough to make your BR slowly go up. :)

      Oh yes, table selection. Don't forget that as well. :)
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      Originally posted by conquistadorrr
      Those hands you shouldn't worry too much about. It's those other hands that make us lose money. So focus more on them. One of the best advice I heard for microstakes cash games is - when the lose passive player raises you or suddenly donk bets strong (they even go all in like maniacs) - they have a monster hand. So fold. As soon as I got myself disciplined to fold in those situations, the results got better. Also, I almost stopped bluffing. You need to know who you can bluff and exactly how to do that. It's almost an art if you ask me. So keep your bluffing for when it won't cost you much, you have position and they've showed weakness. Just those 2 leaks should save you a lot in microstakes.

      And like I said, just reread some articles and get yourself focused on playing ABC... with HUD - it should be just enough to make your BR slowly go up. :)

      Oh yes, table selection. Don't forget that as well. :)
      I find that I lose more money on such hands (because the pot gets really big) than those other hands :/

      And I realized maybe because I watch a lot of poker videos on Youtube (HSP, Poker after dark, Tom Dwan/Phil Ivey/Negreanu/etc. videos) I expect my opponents to be playing like the pros, so many times what I was sure was a 3-barrel bluff was in fact value bets all the way. And because my friends watch those videos too and when we play live poker we do it that way, so perhaps I should stop over-estimating microstakes players and, like what you suggested, play ABC poker.

      (ABC poker works, I won a fair bit through ABC).
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      Originally posted by fterh
      so perhaps I should stop over-estimating microstakes players and, like what you suggested, play ABC poker.
      Exactly! If you want to pull of a bluff, you can't do it against someone who doesn't think about your range, what hand you could have and why you played like you did. On the other hand, those value bets you mentioned - yes, they most often are value bets. Especially if it comes from a lose passive player. Or those tight aggressive ones. So let the HUD be of help there and just avoid those situations. And that's what I meant by those "other hands" - when we misjudge their strength.

      I realized that whenever I am concentrated and pay attention to HUD and the way they play their hand - I can read them pretty good. Microstakes are full of players who have an obvious style of playing and they don't change it. So you can count on them to keep playing like they do.

      Yes, occasionally we'll have a bad beat. But bad beat is not when we call their monster hands. It's when we have a great hand and they keep calling with bad odds only to eventually hit a monster on the river. And that's fine for me - I want them to call when I am ahead.

      If they hit it on the turn and start shoving - is it really a bad beat? :) Not if you can read the hand, because you will fold and save yourself a lot of bb's. :) And like I said, with paying attention to HUD, notes and the way they play their hands - you're ahead. It just takes discipline.

      If you are that good playing like Dwan, Ivey (not really like them, but you get my point) then move up to NL10. :) On microstakes you'll just get frustrated.
    • William340
      William340
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2012 Posts: 170
      here's what you get at the lowest of the micros (on Merge)

      $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Holdem
      Merge
      9 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      UTG Player3 ($2.39)
      UTG+1 Player4 ($2.96)
      MP1 Player5 ($3.94)
      MP2 Player6 ($3.11)
      MP3 William340 ($4)
      CO Player8 ($4)
      BTN Player9 ($2.66) - VPIP: 72, PFR: 14, 3B: 0, AF: 2.6, Hands: 29
      SB Player1 ($4.54) - VPIP: 15, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.6, Hands: 1143
      BB Player2 ($5.36)- VPIP: 21, PFR: 12, 3B: 7, AF: 4.3, Hands: 108

      Pre-Flop: ($0.06, 9 players) William340 is MP3 9:club: 8:heart:
      4 folds, William340 folds, 1 fold, Player9 calls $0.04, Player1 raises to $0.16, Player2 calls $0.12, Player9 calls $0.12

      Flop: 5:club: Q:heart: 10:club: ($0.48, 3 players)
      Player1 bets $0.24, Player2 raises to $0.80, Player9 goes all-in $2.50, Player1 folds, Player2 calls $1.70

      Turn: 5:heart: ($5.72, 2 players, 1 all-in)

      River: J:club: ($5.72, 2 players, 1 all-in)

      Final Pot: $5.72
      Player2 shows
      Q:club: A:club:
      Player9 shows
      5:spade: J:heart:

      Player9 wins $5.44 (net +$2.78)

      Player1 lost $0.40
      Player2 lost $2.66

      you know. because bottom pair and a backdoor straight draw look so strong on that board.
      and then of course he hits his backdoor boat draw . . . .
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      Originally posted by William340
      you know. because bottom pair and a backdoor straight draw look so strong on that board.
      i think the thought process looks more like the following:

      pre: i have two cards, whatever let's try to see a flop
      flop: i have a pair, and this guy has reraised me all-in. what the? he must be bluffing. i call

      i can't find a good explanation as to why he raised the flop though ?( i guess "i have a pair" will have to suffice?
    • ArkhamAsylum
      ArkhamAsylum
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.09.2011 Posts: 527
      Is the starting capital on Dafapoker now ???????/ op said he got his 50 dollars there.

      Or do different parts of the world get different rooms to choose from for the starting capital :f_o:
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      How did I play this hand? Was the loss unavoidable, or was it stupid play on my part?

      IPoker, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      BB: $1.98 (99 bb)
      MP: $1.93 (96.5 bb)
      CO: $1.85 (92.5 bb)
      Hero (BTN): $0.84 (42 bb)
      SB: $2.13 (106.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BTN with Ts Td
      MP calls $0.02, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 folds, MP calls $0.04

      Flop: ($0.15) Kc 2h 7c (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero bets $0.10, MP raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

      Turn: ($0.55) 9h (2 players)
      MP checks, Hero checks

      River: ($0.55) 5h (2 players)
      MP bets $0.55, Hero calls $0.55

      Results: $1.65 pot ($0.11 rake)
      Final Board: Kc 2h 7c 9h 5h
      MP showed 2s 2d and won $1.54 ($0.73 net)
      Hero mucked Ts Td and lost (-$0.81 net)
      Also, this:

      IPoker, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      UTG: $1.86 (93 bb)
      MP: $1.39 (69.5 bb)
      CO: $0.92 (46 bb)
      BTN: $3.50 (175 bb)
      SB: $2.16 (108 bb)
      Hero (BB): $1.11 (55.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Jd 4c
      3 folds, BTN calls $0.02, SB folds, Hero checks

      Flop: ($0.05) 4s 8d 9h (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.02, Hero calls $0.02

      Turn: ($0.09) Jh (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14

      River: ($0.37) Td (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      Results: $0.37 pot ($0.02 rake)
      Final Board: 4s 8d 9h Jh Td
      BTN showed 5d Kh and lost (-$0.18 net)
      Hero mucked Jd 4c and won $0.35 ($0.17 net)
      I wanted to raise on the turn, but I was afraid of facing a shove (happened to me a lot, either by maniacs or genuine monsters, but I guess I'll never know). I know I should be confident about my hand, but right now my primary aim is to build up my bankroll and I'd rather earn a little steadily than take risks and put my hard-earned winnings in peril :/

      Should I have raised?
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      Ok, here's what I would do.

      First hand:
      I fold to his river bet. It's obvious he has you beat. Usually limp and then check raise means a set, sometimes even AK, so I would be worried about it, but I would call extra 10c on the flop. But river I am folding.

      Second hand:
      It depends on the player. Is he aggressive? If so, then check/call. But if he's not, then you have to value bet. That's where your HUD comes in handy. However, since the board was 8 9 J on the turn, I wouldn't get myself carried away and keep building the pot, because it might put me in a tough spot on the river - and river did come T which really sucks. So I don't think you played that one bad. I would play just like you did. And if anyone has a different opinion, I'd like to hear it too!
    • fterh
      fterh
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.04.2012 Posts: 18
      Thanks a lot! I guess I was a LITTLE on tilt for the first hand, hence the stupid call :P

      BTW what about this one:
      IPoker, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      SB: $1.96 (98 bb)
      BB: $1.07 (53.5 bb)
      Hero (UTG): $1.23 (61.5 bb)
      MP: $2.30 (115 bb)
      CO: $3.90 (195 bb)
      BTN: $4.47 (223.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jc Js
      Hero raises to $0.06, MP calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06, BTN folds, SB calls $0.05, BB folds

      Flop: ($0.26) 6d 4s 7s (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $0.18, MP folds, CO calls $0.18, SB raises to $0.80, Hero folds, CO calls $0.62

      Turn: ($2.04) 9d (2 players)
      SB bets $1.10, CO folds

      Results: $2.04 pot ($0.13 rake)
      Final Board: 6d 4s 7s 9d
      SB mucked and won $1.91 ($1.05 net)
      CO mucked and lost (-$0.86 net)
      villain is 61/39 over 29 hands, I really contemplated shoving all-in, but since he's so loose he may well have a straight or set.
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      I really hope someone will comment on this last hand you posted!

      I don't know. He's lose aggressive. Maybe he decided to be aggressive because he thought you both missed the flop. So it's possible that you laid down the best hand. But I don't think it's very likely, because if he did he would most probably donk bet strong.

      You know, it looks to me as if he had 64, 76... Those hands fit his range and they would fit in the way he played them... Maybe even 44... a set...

      Thoughts on it? Anyone?