# Hey, general question about shortstacked micro SNG

• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
Question to ppl who tried shortstacked micro sngs like ipokers jackpot sngs...

Context:
in ipokers dirtydozen sng (\$2+\$40) you start with 1000 chips and there are 12 players (on two SH tables) and 50/25/15/10 payout structure. You need to reach 1 and 2 place constantly to be +EV (3 and 4 place only symbolic payout)

Because such SNG structure and fishy players You need to risk all your stack many times to reach good money (you haven't much fold equity there even in later stages).

Question:
Is it true that even mathematically You hardly can be +EV on such setup (big rake and no fold equity)?
• 10 replies
• Bronze
Joined: 04.01.2012
Hi Devilazas,

When we look at these type of SNG's I see that coming 4th gives you your money back and 3rd only a small profit. While this is a weird pay out structure it is still possible for you to make money in these games.

The fact you have no fold equity should not be a issue if you are shoving with the correct ranges. As explained by NASH. I will try and find some material on that for you now.

The biggest downside to these games is the higher rake and as a result playing a SNG with 20% rake means that your ROI will need to be higher then that of a SNG with 10% rake.

Hope this helps and please let me know if you have any other questions.

Callum
• Gold
Joined: 11.03.2009
The main reason I'd imagine most people playing them is for hitting the jackpot. Yet, the same reasoning contributes to a larger number of fishes willing to gamble, and should, in theory, make them far softer.

Now, if you could find a friend... or eleven...
• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
Hehe good point about friends, but lets stick to mathematics

Ok so its possible to be +, but how to read opponents calling range if you have only 30 or so hands at the same table with him. In general i try to apply principle big stack calls with 40%, medium with 20%, others 10% (not including position). Is this correct?

No idea about oponents pushing range though, many highblinds limpers there what makes standart push/fold difficult. Should i loosen my play on limpers? But stacks are so shallow, loosen play costs so much, only ABC play is possible IMO, im right?
• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
Btw yes it gets alot softer, but there is a problem, You are facing 20%-60% risks to your whole stack many times per game, so its hard to get good EV, not counting these times when you push into the monster
• Gold
Joined: 11.03.2009
Indeed, it may be more prone to variance.

Using a HUD in those games (as in every game, for that matter) is of paramount importance. This way one can easily distinguish between the variety of fishes and find an optimal way to play against them. If you already have a reasonable sample against them, that is. Also, never bluff against a pescado.

If you are already using a HUD and have some statistics on your own play, then just take the percentage you have finished in first place, and calculate the probability of getting 4, (or X) first place finishes in a row.

I, for example, have 21% first place finishes in one table, six max hyper turboes with a sample size over 6600 tournaments.

0.21^4=0,00195 ~ 0,2%

0,02% of 6600 is roughly 13. This means that over those 6600 games I should have won the jackpot (that requires 4 consecutive wins) on average 13 times. Now you simply have to take into account how much extra rake you will be paying and how high the jackpot is. I imagine that you will be paying .20 Yankistan'i dollars extra for each SnG. In my case it would be 1320 dollars. It then remains to find out, whether winning the jackpot 13 times is more, or less than 1320. Basically, if the jackpot is more than 102 dollars, then it becomes profitable.

You will obviously get different results with a 12man tournament, but the overall idea remains the same.

Also, if the site you play at is any good in paying rakeback, or has a decent VIP programme, then you could deduct rakeback from the extra rake you pay. Also, I remember some sites offering a consolation prize for second place finishes. This will boost the winnings even more.
• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
+1 to Styr very interesting calculations

Point is i want to be profitable event without rake and without jackpot (too optimistic you say?) will try to play some ABC push fold on few hundreds of those with only 6 tables at once to have time to weight my decisions

Still not sure what to do with highblinds limpers. Tight push/fold? Call not really an option, because of shallowness
• Gold
Joined: 11.03.2009
I'd prefer pushing. If you get called with some crap, or monsters, then make a note on that and hope you will encouter that player again.
• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
after 50 tables im a bit down, but understood that its not so hopeless to beat this game type. Im just bit more careful with my pushing spots, hands and paying more attention to stats. I used to push looser before there was my leak IMO.
• Gold
Joined: 11.03.2009
It is against whom you push, that matters. Trust me, there are people who will fold their limps, and then there are those who only limp with their monsters. And then of course all the rest, who will double you up when you have a decent hand.

It might cost you a few buy-ins to find out, but once you do, it can become quite profitable. That is the way I did it in hyper turboes.
• Bronze
Joined: 30.04.2008
Hey moderator, next time somebody asks for SH sng, very good resource is there:

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/2029/1/

there is stated what i have discovered myself
...
As you can see, surprisingly tight play from the button is recommended in this situation, you shouldn’t even shove strong medium pairs such as 88. This is because when the button folds there is a significant chance of the other two players going all-in and, by folding a significant part of the range that we might have shoved if this was not a consideration, we make it more likely. Similarly, because you are only playing three handed, opponents can call slightly wider than they would in a full-ring game, resulting in a confrontation that you would usually prefer to avoid
...

very recommend to read to all SH sng players