When to slow play?

    • noz03
      noz03
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      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      When is it good to slow play a hand? I usually do when I get a set and 2 of the cards are on the table, or if the flop comes A58 and I have the other ace, as usually the fish get scared easily by this flop.

      Are these both correct? And are there any other good situations to slow play?
  • 10 replies
    • booomm
      booomm
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      Joined: 22.03.2011 Posts: 677
      I don't think slowplaying one pair is a good thing, pretty much all the time, unless you are playing against a maniac who takes himself to valuetown :s_biggrin:
    • noz03
      noz03
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      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Well maybe not slow playing because you expect the other player to start betting but so that they will call your turn and river bets not thinking you had the ace. Whereas if you bet the flop they just fold and you get nothing. Also on a flop like that they will only have you beat by a set and you should be able to tell when they have it.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
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      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by noz03
      Also on a flop like that they will only have you beat by a set and you should be able to tell when they have it.
      OK, let me describe a hand for you! You are with AKs, you raise and get a limper. There is A85 flop, you check, he checks, there is 2 on the turn, you bet, he calls. What are you putting him on at this time? Because of your "slow-play" you have no feed on what is he holding, weak ace, strong ace, 8, 5, 2, 85s, 52s, 82s, A2, A5, A8, 88, 55, 22, AA, some other pocket pair??? Or, is he waiting for straight with 34, 67, or is he waiting for a flush if that one is the second of some suit! And if it is 22, as I imagined in this example, K hitting the river will take your whole stack!!! But, if you c-betted, if the villain is not a donking station, you would have won some 10BB... Much better then losing 100BB, right?
      Also, c-betting when you hit and when you don't hit the flop is a great way of disguising your pr-flop hand. Always c-bet, unless you are playing some pre-flop passive and post-flop aggressive player, because he will float you, or when the flop simply says, DON'T BET! :)
      I hope this helps?
      The thing is, be aggressive as much as you can, unless situation at the table calls for you to not be aggressive! Even if you had American Airlines on the flop like that (A85), still c-bet!!! It will be a great disguise, especially if you play with floater or set miner. Just imagine if another 5 turns and he is set miner, you c-bet, he'll pay! Or, check here if you want to slow-play, who knows what magical card villain can hit on the river and there is only combo of 3 hands that beat you!
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
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      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hi noz03!

      I moved your thread to the no limit forum where it suits better imo.

      I usually don't slow play in the micro's and I don't think you have to either. Just bet when you have the best hand and make them pay. If they don't pay you of on the flop they won't usually won't pay of on the turn either.

      Something else noz03, I've seen a couple of threads made by you with strategy questions. This is very good to improve your game! But have you considered starting with the No Limit Beginners Course? You will find an answer to most of your questions during this course. And you can ask questions to a professional coach!

      Don't get me wrong, we don't mind you asking about all this stuff. In fact it is very good that you ask about this for yourself and for ourselves as well!

      Best of luck on the tables!

      RasTweet
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      You will usually play against one of two types of players:

      1. Bad passive players - they call any piece, never bet themselves. It's bad to slowplay against them because they will check down instead of call 3 streets with their middle pair.

      2. Bad aggressive players - they will very often call too often but now also raise a reasonable amount of the time. If you don't bet they can't raise so they might bet but their raises will be bigger and get money into the pot faster. Apart from the raises they still CALL TOO OFTEN! Again betting is superior.

      Slowplaying really isn't something to consider unless you are against a good player that will be aggressive when you show weakness a lot more than be happy to call down when you bet.

      Also, +1 for RasTweet's suggestion to consider the Beginners Course. You can still ask questions on the forum even while taking the course but the main thing is you will have most of your answers there.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions. Yeah sorry Im asking so much lately, I decided to get really deep into poker this week so been studying an playing about 6 hours a day :) and I must say it has been working... I feel my game getting better every single day! I am actually planning to join the beginners course also, in fact I tried to but I realised you have to be at least bronze member so first I would need to get the $50 which takes time :/

      Anyway back to slow playing... I still kind of dont agree im afraid. I really find the super passive fish will call almost everything but they fold very easily against scare cards, especially on the flop, and especially aces... maybe its because when we start playing poker we see a magic glowing light around all the aces, i know i did at first! So I find they always fold an A58 board on the flop almost every time, unless they have the ace or maybe a flush draw. However if I check the flop they relax and go back to their normal passive self again and I can take value on the turn/river. Also if I only have a top pair I dont want such a huge pot anyway, so Im not wasting any value either as I would probably check the turn anyway.

      What do you guys think? Is this really a bad play? Ive used it a few times and usually works well. Am only saying it against dry boards though where they dont have any draw or face pair.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Checking back a weaker top pair type hand is not really slowplaying, it's more pot controlling and it makes sense.

      When you have a monster though, winning a few small pots will give the impression that you are getting paid off but in reality you are wasting value when you don't 'cooler' a calling station for his stack when he holds A2 on A55 and you have quads.

      Another thing to learn here is that if they fold often there, it's a good spot to bluff. Don't go crazy when you get called though.. you said it yourself, they fold if they don't have a good hand.

      I think you don't agree because you haven't played that many hands yet and haven't seen how light you actually get called if you have an aggressive image, even if that image consists of raise preflop and cbetting a lot. I can't even remember how many times I facepalmed when I got only 2 streets of value with a FH when the other had TPTK and just played it passively, instead of getting his whole stack.

      Here's how to think of it:

      If you slowplay and win an extra 8bbs everytime your opponent has a weak hand but lose about 70bbs you could have won from when he has a big hand. He doesn't have to hit that often in order for it to be profitable to keep value betting against everything.

      Slowplaying makes sense if it doesn't miss you value from any made hand AND it gets you more value from all air in his range. That's why it MIGHT be good against very aggressive opponents and never good against passive ones.

      At microstakes you will usually face passive opponents and the aggressive ones will still be likely to play back even when you bet, like I mentioned before.

      Cheers.
    • noz03
      noz03
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      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      If you slowplay and win an extra 8bbs everytime your opponent has a weak hand but lose about 70bbs you could have won from when he has a big hand. He doesn't have to hit that often in order for it to be profitable to keep value betting against everything.
      V well put. I see what you mean now. Ill still keep my strategy with the ace situation as like you said its also controlling the pot as well as hiding that i had the ace. But am still wondering the best way to play xxy flops when I have an x. Like you said I can make 70bb if he hits something but on a flop like that its very very unlikely, except if they had a reasonably large pocket pair. Thats why I slow play them, if i get a set from a pocket pair Id of course value all 3 streets.

      What about putting in a very small bet on the xxy flop? Around half or less? Itll look like a cheap steal so wont scare off the other player too much and might even incite a resteal?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by noz03
      What about putting in a very small bet on the xxy flop? Around half or less? Itll look like a cheap steal so wont scare off the other player too much and might even incite a resteal?
      If he doesnt have a hand he will not put money on later streets either, unless his pocket pair made a FH.. else he folds his air on any street.

      There's no magical way to get paid off each time you have the nuts and always make the opponent fold when you have air. All you can do is see what spots get you folds so you bluff them often without stopping to also value bet and you value bet more/bluff less in spots that get you plenty of calls.

      Given your concern, I think you still view poker as a hand by hand game where you play hand vs hand but it is not the way it works. It's range vs range and each action will have consequences in the future hands, some more than others but rarely your one hand won't affect the whole game, whether it tilts your opponent, it tilts you, it gives him info and he adjusts, give you info, etc. Something will change which is why those who are aware of these changes have success while those who play hand for hand without realizing the impact of their action will usually be losing or at most breakeven players.

      If you are taking poker seriously and hope to make some decent extra money you have to slowly learn to figure out ranges and how actions impact the game.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • Boowat
      Boowat
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      Joined: 04.04.2010 Posts: 11
      I often get in trouble slow playing. I think ill stop putting myself in those tricky/awful situatios