Playing against 3 or more fish?

    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Lets say you are on a table with more than 3 or more fish? And im talking absolute donkeys. Youve got stations, maniacs, absolute idiot donkeys, you name it.

      How would you change your play style? and especially your pre flop range? I usually add an extra bb to my pre raise, and loosen up a bit when I have the position. But thats all I know. and I keep getting sucked out on because i never give them credit for any good hand
  • 10 replies
    • abhi147
      abhi147
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2011 Posts: 935
      Super tight and super lose
      Play lots and lots of hands like suited connectors and small pp from late position against fishes
      When i hit against a maniac turn passive and against a station bet small to chase his 2 carders and shit

      If a tags involved in the hand id prefer to play only my strongest range from any position

      The biggest mistake we make is we try to chase our draws and forget to see how good the odds are and we end up losing more money when we miss than winning when we hit

      In general id advise to be a bit more passive and its ok to fold good hands post flop if you know the board is something that hits a fishes range

      I had major issues playing against fishes initially but once you will learn to adjust to them then there should be no problem

      And yes fish do hit more often than us its because they play more hands than us
      IF they suck out, so be it move on to next hand
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hello guys,

      Play strong high hands preflop vs fish. Most value vs them will come from flopping a better pair than them and getting to showdown. Contrary to popular belief, stay away from small suited connectors that won't flop a decent pair like 65s and below. You get outhit with such hands in every spot. Your flushdraw will be low, your straight draw won't have overcards and your pairs will be useless.

      Instead of 76s, go with K7s, K6s, you flop better pairs and high flush draws. K6s doesn't play much different from A6s.

      Next is to value bet the stations to death and lean towards bluffcatching against maniacs. One thing to be prudent when dealing with bad aggressive players is showing up with too weak of a range when you know they bluff a lot. Don't bluffcatch bottom pair or underpair.. bluffatch middle pair + top kicker, top pair low kicker.. What I'm trying to say is, don't get to the river with a flopped pair of 5s when it was second pair and turn was another overcard and river another one.. Make sure your pair will have enough blanks on later streets to bluffcatch with it.

      It's hard to say more in just a post, something like this is explained better with practical examples.

      Cheers,
      Manu.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      So you think its ok to play k6s from the button in a full ring game with enough fish in it? Lets say more than 50% palyers per flop? Can I also say its ok to limp a lot of these potential flush/straight hands without too much showdown value? As fish dont raise enough preflop and call too much postflop

      My problem against them is I keep loosing huge pots to them when I either think they are bluffing, or just calling bottem pairs... and actually they just check called a set or a flush.... my god the amount of times they have done it to me. Seems to defy the laws of probability!
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Yes, limping behind big suited hands is fine. The more players into the pot, the more nutted your hands have to be in any game, not just in FR.

      Small to medium suited connectors are fine when playing against one opponent since he will miss often and you can just put pressure on him. With many players in, most of which call down, you want to get it, flop the nuts and get paid or hit better than them on average and get to showdown.

      I can't give you a completely general advice more than that. There's a difference between a 90VPIP fish and a 40% one... The general advice applies but has to be compared with their range. Playing J7s to flop the nuts when opponent plays K6s or better is probably not great. When he plays 32s or better you can see there are many hands you are ahead off with the trashy suited hand.

      Limping is ok if you limp behind. I'm completely against open limping, although I have never tried it even in the fishiest games I've played.

      When it comes to your problem of them hitting, it happens and you have to work on not having such a selective memory. You need to keep a clear head to play good poker and realize how little you've actually played to even talk about long term results...
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Actually I dont think it was selective memory, last night it happened about 6 or 7 times and maybe 60-70% of the time I went into a big pot with tptk they had at least 2 pairs, or a slowplayed set or something... Ended up down 200bb after 3 hours of playing :(

      Actually at one point I wrote on the back of my hand ( accidently and stupidly with a permanent marker haha) not to call any over bets with only 1 pair, no matter how donky they are... but then they still ended up getting me by slowplaying. I value 2 or 3 streets then they bet in on the river and I have a very hard decision. If the bet was so huge i might consider a fold, but its usually not big enough to give up such a big pot with such a donkey.

      Do you have any suggestions on how to avoid this? Or is it just very bad variance? Unfortunately I cant post the exact hands as I dont have pt3 running there but will try to post a good example the next time it happens.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      Oh I just realized I already posted a good example from a different session and you also replied on it. Raped by a fish with 27off.... I feel violated :'(

      Seriously I think this is my biggest leak but have no idea what to do about it :(
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Don't call bets/raises vs passive players without a strong hand. One pair is not a strong hand. Don't play big pots without strong hands. :D

      I don't know how much have you played so far but if you are just at the beginning, losing 2 stacks is well... nothing.. it's not even worth talking about it.

      Another thing you don't do properly is classify players: there are no donks, fish or idiots when discussing game strategy. There are passive, loose, aggressive, calling stations, etc.

      If you want to start learning more from the basics you should join the NL Beginners Course.

      There you'll be guided from the beginning towards having a good understanding of basics on which you can build a solid game.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • noz03
      noz03
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2012 Posts: 129
      True, well to be honest I think a lot of last night was just ridiculous variance...... hope im not shooting myself in the foot by thinking that... Will play a few hours tonight on the same tables and see how they go.

      Am already in the beginners course btw :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      I didn't notice that, I'm not part of it so I don't follow what's going on around there. :f_biggrin:

      Your focus should be on improving. Don't think you play perfectly but don't kick yourself for mistakes. Simply learn from them. You think you made a mistake somewhere, dig deeper, see why it's a mistake, when would your play make sense, what alternatives do you have, etc.

      Feeling bad when you lose is normal but the sooner you snap out of it and start doing something productive, the better. ;)

      Cheers.
    • conall88
      conall88
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2009 Posts: 1,715
      Imho:

      aim: stack off as a favourite, be in a dominating situation.
      method: best way is to see flops and evaluate. value of top pair increases somewhat. good kicker requirements decrease somewhat. two pair is practically the nuts.

      problem: they 3bet you lots or raise lots

      solution: open smaller, play more pots in position and less OOP. See how they react to checks. If they overadjust and start donking pot and stuff, having a checkraising range will probably be useful. I wouldn't do it with weak stuff initially, but if you find them potting then calling a reshove with junk, you can start doing it with semibluffs where you have OK equity when called, but are relying on fold equity for profit. All depends on the type of maniac...

      if it goes multiway preflop frequently, you can play more connectors in position
      if it ends up that they 4bet each other pre, just wait on a monster imo.


      If two or more of the maniacs are to your left, I would just leave. More often than not they will have position on you, which will make your life hell as you will have to nit up.

      Money flows clockwise around the table overall. having position is important.