NL10 Zoom 4tabling tips

    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      I have been playing Zoom on pokerstars NL10 for a bit now and I've been getting rather moderate results. Mostly due to the fact that I have difficulty figuring out how I should play against opponents that are mostly unknown to me since I have only stats and no reads (too many tables for that). After 30365 hands I have a winrate of 1.12 bb/100, which is in my opinion rather horrible. I've heard that 4bb/100 are doable by most ABC regs so I think that something that I am doing must be wrong. I feel that something that I am doing is wrong since I am rather struggling against this mostly reg field.

      So what general advice could you give me?

      I am mostly struggling with finding a good 3Bet range both in and out of position. I am also struggling with blind defense.
  • 13 replies
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Hello,

      You have quite a few discussions about 3betting that apply well for NL10 Zoom imo here:

      AK and QQ preflop on lower stakes

      What's more important while 3betting, history or stats?

      What are your blind winrates? If your combined losing total is less than 70bb/100 you are fine for NL10 and should probably first look to increase your IP winrate.

      What's important to know is that 30k hands are far from enough to determine your true winrate so 1bb/100 in those hands can mean 4bb/100 in true winrate without much of a surprise.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Those are very good discussions, however, I am struggling with a problem of much different nature – determining opponents' ranges.

      Since I am 4tabling and the player pool for NL10 on Zoom is rather big I cannot really make any notes or even remember my opponents too well. So I am basically left in the dark when it comes to determining someone's range. Hence the problem with finding a good 3Bet range. Some of them fold a lot, some of them call with junk. So how do I play? What should my standard be? Or does the problem lie in the fact that I am not even trying to get any reads even though it is not completely impossible?

      My winrates based on position:

      SB: -13,79
      BB: -30,86
      EP: 9.60
      MP: 9.69
      CO: 8.33
      BU: 18.48

      I often find people calling 3Bets IP very often so it is difficult for me to defend my blinds aggressively with mediocre hands. I am left with cold-calling OOP for the most part.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      If they call you 3bet good hands, if they fold you 3bet some crap and premiums.

      Ofc the problems lies with you not even trying to get reads though. :f_biggrin: You don't have to make them in game, just review the session in HEM afterwards and you'll get all the reads you need.

      When it comes to determining opponent's ranges there's no magic.. you have to pay attention, make assumptions and get reads asap, just like in normal ring games.

      As far as playing in the blinds, you are doing very well and you need to focus on improving your CO and BU a lot.

      Cheers.
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
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      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      What are your blind winrates? If your combined losing total is less than 70bb/100 you are fine for NL10 and should probably first look to increase your IP winrate.
      Hi, sorry to hijack OP's thread, but I have been curious about my stats from the blinds for a while now. I'm not sure where I am going wrong exactly, but it seems like I have a fairly big leak out of the blinds.

      Here's my SB/BB stats over last 75k hands:

      BB/100 / VPIP / PFR / 3bet / WTSD / W$SD / AF

      SB: -26.97 / 18.2 / 14.4 / 5.1 / 20.7 / 58 / 5.68
      BB: -33.89 / 15.3 / 6.3 / 5.6 / 22.5 / 49.4 / 2.6


      Is there anything noticeably wrong with these stats? maybe in VPIP/PFR area?
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      So my assumption that getting reads while 4tabling zoom is not possible or that it is ineffective because of the large player pool is wrong?

      Do you suggest ever taking notes? Or just remembering all and everything? The latter seems rather hard and short-term (since it will be hard to remember the same things during the next session) while the former looks like something that I can do only during reviewing.

      Is there anything noticeably wrong with these stats? maybe in VPIP/PFR area?


      As far as I know, it is not really possible to ever have a positive winrate from the blinds and yours seems fine, I guess.
    • Solidius
      Solidius
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 209
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Those are very good discussions, however, I am struggling with a problem of much different nature – determining opponents' ranges.

      Since I am 4tabling and the player pool for NL10 on Zoom is rather big I cannot really make any notes or even remember my opponents too well. So I am basically left in the dark when it comes to determining someone's range. Hence the problem with finding a good 3Bet range. Some of them fold a lot, some of them call with junk. So how do I play? What should my standard be? Or does the problem lie in the fact that I am not even trying to get any reads even though it is not completely impossible?

      My winrates based on position:

      SB: -13,79
      BB: -30,86
      EP: 9.60
      MP: 9.69
      CO: 8.33
      BU: 18.48

      I often find people calling 3Bets IP very often so it is difficult for me to defend my blinds aggressively with mediocre hands. I am left with cold-calling OOP for the most part.
      When you feel that you should take a note, just click the replay button (on the top left of the table you played the hand), find the opponent and take the note you want. Note taking is a very effective way to find people's tendecies and exploit them.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
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      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Taking notes is ineffective when you make useless notes. I consider useless notes those that just replay the action.

      If you don't ever review, how do you expect to get better and climb through the limits? Poker is not about playing according to some charts, it's getting to know what your opponents do and exploit it as much as possible. If you don't do that, you'll be break even or losing because of the rake.

      I usually play about 10k hands at the "new limit" then review, make notes and return only if needed. For me this one review will be enough because I get a good idea of how people play and only make notes from time to time. I probably have a better memory than the average player though and a better feeling for the game in Zoom. :)

      Do that review now, make the notes. You'll start seeing how most opponent's will have close to the same notes which means similar tendencies, which means you can make it your default assumption and not require to make a note in the future.

      @Danny:

      Your 3bet percentage is very small in the blinds and it's probably the cause of your bad winrate. I think if you simply start increasing your 3bet by 2-3% and NEVER put in money in the pot postflop unless you have a hand you'll improve. Overall, it's not too bad but there's definitely a lot you can improve there.
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
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      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      Thanks for the help guys :)
      Over those 75k hands, my overall 3bet was only 4.6, which does feel a bit low.
      So you see know problem with VPIP/PFR emanuel?

      (I promise ill stop stealing your thread now avatars)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by dannywratten
      Thanks for the help guys :)
      Over those 75k hands, my overall 3bet was only 4.6, which does feel a bit low.
      So you see know problem with VPIP/PFR emanuel?

      (I promise ill stop stealing your thread now avatars)

      The VPIP and PFR will change once you start 3betting more and then I can have a second look. For now, I can't tell if you just don't 3bet enough or neither call enough.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      If you don't ever review, how do you expect to get better and climb through the limits? Poker is not about playing according to some charts, it's getting to know what your opponents do and exploit it as much as possible. If you don't do that, you'll be break even or losing because of the rake.


      I am, of course, studying the game by reading articles + watching videos, but I have not really done much reviewing lately. Could you give me any tips on how to review sessions, e.g., what to look out for what is not really necessary aso.?

      I think if you simply start increasing your 3bet by 2-3% and NEVER put in money in the pot postflop unless you have a hand you'll improve.


      Why not Cbet some boards?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      When reviewing simply look for stuff that didn't work and figure out why it didn't. It's here you find situations where you go wrong mostly. A bad preflop 3bet, an overly ambitious bluff, a bad raise (whether it's value or bluff), etc.

      I just go through hands and reevaluate each action.

      @3betting: because if you 3bet preflop wide enough you will rarely have equity postflop so when you cbet you just put in dead money. Against certain people you can cbet but doing it as a default you will be burning money by cbetting air in 3bet pot once you get called preflop.
    • Avatars91
      Avatars91
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      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 2,689
      Thanks for the great advice!
    • dannywratten
      dannywratten
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      Joined: 11.05.2010 Posts: 1,462
      Originally posted by Avatars91
      Thanks for the great advice!
      +1 :)