Calling when Beat

    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      What is thought process involved in continuing to call even when you're sure you're beat.
      I noticed in many videos the coach tells "I'm sure he hit a K and now has us beat, I'll just call."

      What is the reason behind this.
      How do you calculate EV behind such calls.

      TY
      Kruger
  • 7 replies
    • staktas
      staktas
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by kruger32

      I noticed in many videos the coach tells "I'm sure he hit a K and now has us beat, I'll just call."

      Kruger
      I'm sure no coach ever told this, because it's just plain nonsense. He might have said something like this, though: "He could have hit his king and could have us beat now, so I'll just call".
    • Glopslart
      Glopslart
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.05.2008 Posts: 331
      This is known as a 'crying call' . You do it, I do it, I suspect most of us do it. It is a leak which we all need to burn out of our systems.

      It happens, normally, when Villain has beaten the odds and made his draw, or has been insanely lucky with the flop when he 'should not' have called your raise.

      The point is YOU KNOW you are beat, but keep putting your chips down anyway, because part of your brain is telling you the situation is so darned 'unfair'.
    • conquistadorrr
      conquistadorrr
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2010 Posts: 71
      Well... you are never sure, unless you can see his cards. So the reason why people call is - they think they can beat a part of his range (I'm talking about the range deduced from the way he played the hand) and the bet gives enough pot odds for the call.

      However, people tend to forget that there usually aren't that many hands that they could beat, but they still just won't let go... because the bet "wasn't that big" or they really hoped that the villain will show a weaker hand... or the villain was just bluffing all along! All these rationalizations just kill your game. From my experience, if you have a strong feeling that you are beat - fold. There is no need for higher math and calculations. Calling when you are beat is what fish does. :f_cool:

      Also, chasing the draws thinking that you have implied odds... when you actually don't have implied odds - fishy thing to do.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by staktas
      Originally posted by kruger32

      I noticed in many videos the coach tells "I'm sure he hit a K and now has us beat, I'll just call."

      Kruger
      I'm sure no coach ever told this, because it's just plain nonsense. He might have said something like this, though: "He could have hit his king and could have us beat now, so I'll just call".
      Well you can be sure he hit a K and has us beat MOST of the time and still make the call.

      Like your on the rvr and villan bets 5$ into 10$ pot you can call even tho your sure your beat very often since you only have to win 25% of the time.

      It all comes down to pot odds and how likely he is to bluff that scare card. A lot of the time even the passive players with take the scare card and bluff at it so when K overcard hits the river you will be goo with your bluffcacther about 30% of the time.
    • staktas
      staktas
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2011 Posts: 1,346
      Originally posted by MatejM47

      Well you can be sure he hit a K and has us beat MOST of the time and still make the call.

      Well, if you are SURE that he hit a river, and you sitting there with a bluff catcher, then he has you beat all the time, not just most of the time so you fold.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by staktas
      I'm sure no coach ever told this, because it's just plain nonsense. He might have said something like this, though: "He could have hit his king and could have us beat now, so I'll just call".
      A coach said it right here in a pokerstrategy FL vid. And it's not nonsense.
      Given a very very high pot it would be nonsense to fold a beat hand. Even in a turn situation you have at least some equity with even the worst hands.
      It's definitely not a leak. With the wrong pot odds it surely is a leak.

      I have even read a post by Ed Miller in 2p2 where he said that people lose because "you fold too damn much!"

      Here's a part of the post
      I have a secret. I know why most of you aren't crushing these Microlimit games. It isn't because you guys aren't smart, because you are. It isn't because you don't put the effort in to study, because you do. It isn't because your opponents play well, because they don't.

      It's because you fold too damn much.

      Most low-limit books contain advice that looks like this:

      "Fit or fold."
      "If you don't have the best hand or the best draw, fold."
      "If you have bottom or middle pair, fold."
      "If you have a pocket pair and don't hit your set on the flop, fold."
      "If you have top pair, but don't like your kicker, fold."
      "If you have a straight draw, but there are two of a suit on board, fold."
      "If you have a flush draw, but the board is paired, fold."

      This advice is terrible. In fact, I can prove that this advice is terrible right now. You are playing 1-2, and FishyPoker.com has decided to run a promotion. They are going to add $10 million to this one pot. How should you play? Well, however you play, you sure as hell shouldn't fold. Any dumbass who folds in a $10 million pot for a $2 bet is a moron.

      Now you may say, "well, this is an extreme case," and it is. But the problem with the advice is that it IGNORES THE SIZE OF THE POT, which happens to be the single most important factor in any decision you make at the poker table. Every time you make any decision... whether it be betting or check-raising the flop or calling on the river, you need to be saying to yourself, "how big is the pot?" If you aren't, then you are playing poor poker.

      In the past few weeks, I have seen approximately two zillion posts from players that folded top pair or an overpair in a big pot for just one bet. This is on the flop, on the turn, and on the river.

      "I thought someone had to have me beat."
      "I didn't like my kicker."
      "I didn't want to be dominated."
      "With all those players in, someone had to have a flush draw."
      I don't want to post the link because I don't think it's allowed. Anyway if you're son interested use Google.


      Anyway like MatejM says, it has to do with pot odds and Pot Equitycombined with the Villian's range and the bluffing frequency.
      I wanted to know how to calulate exactly when a call is profitable even though you're sure you're beat.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by staktas
      Well, if you are SURE that he hit a river, and you sitting there with a bluff catcher, then he has you beat all the time, not just most of the time so you fold.
      Yes it makes sense when you put it that way.
      But I'm sure that given very high pot odds a fold would still be incorrect.
      (Of course assuming Sure is not always True)

      Of course if our opponent dropped a card and we saw he has us beat on the river we fold.