Playing AK in 3-Bet pots

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I have lost a lot in this situation. You 3-Bet someone with AK, enter the flop and hit nothing. A normal 2/3 pot sized bet and I feel committed on the turn if I 2nd Barrell. If I don't 2nd barrell then its pretty obvious i have AK and didn't hit anything and the opponent makes a bet if he has a medium pair. Its worst when I'm OOP and get floated left right and center.

      On a 269r kind of board a C-Bet rarely works since the opponent could have an overpair and would call. On a Q83r board people hit hands like AQ,KQ and don't give up. Here C-Bets sometimes work and sometimes don't. I do C-Bet a lot when I 3-Bet AK pre-flop unless the board is very heavy. Should I reduce my C-Bet frequency? I feel if I don't C-Bet and am OOP he's gonna bet, when IP he'll bet turn.

      What would be the ideal play in a 3-Bet pot when you have initiative and don't hit the flop. Its a 3-Bet pot so have to assume opponents with tighter ranges. If the flop C-Bet doesn't work what should one do especially when OOP after 3-Betting pre-flop from blinds.

      What kind of boards should one C-Bet on and what kind of boards should one continue to barrell on the turn? C-Betting turn would mean 9bb gone pre-flop, 12 bb on the flop C-Bet and if the turn C-Bet is 30bb then you've invested about 51bb on just a A high hand. Half a buy in gone just like that.

      I'm definitely screwing up big somewhere.
  • 10 replies
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      your main problem is your bet sizing, 2/3 pot is way too big in a 3bt pot for two reasons.

      1) you dont need to bet more than 1/2 pot to get all in by the river over 3 streets with any value hand.

      2) 1/2 pot gives you the leverage required to bet Flop and turn and still have enough behind for 1.2 psb + on the river. This means you can double barrell and get folds on the turn by alot of floats and mid PPs that peel flop but have to fold turn. It also gives you fold equity on the river but fire that 3rd barrel with caution as villian is getting 3:1 on a call. Some opponents you van do this, its your job to work out who.

      1.2 pot is sufficient for a denying pot odds situation on 2tone flops, no one is ever folding a flush draw in a 3bt pot do again 1.2 pot is enough.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      your main problem is your bet sizing
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
      Could you please throw some more light on that.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
      Could you please throw some more light on that.
      Hey,

      I'll elaborate an answer a bit later about your main concern. Gonna go watch Bute vs Froch on TV. :D

      When it comes to this though there's a really short answer: Nowhere in your description of situations have you talked about your opponent's tendencies or your image, only board and your hand.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      your main problem is your bet sizing, 2/3 pot is way too big in a 3bt pot for two reasons.

      1) you dont need to bet more than 1/2 pot to get all in by the river over 3 streets with any value hand.

      2) 1/2 pot gives you the leverage required to bet Flop and turn and still have enough behind for 1.2 psb + on the river. This means you can double barrell and get folds on the turn by alot of floats and mid PPs that peel flop but have to fold turn. It also gives you fold equity on the river but fire that 3rd barrel with caution as villian is getting 3:1 on a call. Some opponents you van do this, its your job to work out who.

      1.2 pot is sufficient for a denying pot odds situation on 2tone flops, no one is ever folding a flush draw in a 3bt pot do again 1.2 pot is enough.
      Bet sizing should help. I usually only barrel against people with a decent Fold to C-Bet%. Bet after missed C-Bet stat on the turn helps me identify the floaters but need a decent sample to use that stat.

      What about C-Betting frequency on the flop? My C-Bet% on flop is quite high in 3-Bet pots because I would C-Bet flop with pocket pairs so I try to balance out with AK and AQ hands too but how often do you think one should C-Bet?
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
      Could you please throw some more light on that.
      Well your obviously don't know the reasons to c-bet. Its either for value when you have a value hand or as a bluff when you don't. Now even if AK high can sometimes be a value hand most of the time its actually a semi-bluff with 4.5 outs.

      Now when to bluff or semi-bluff? Obviously against people who have a decent folding range. 3-betting AK and then c-betting it vs the fish whose never gonna fold a pair is like taking money out of your vallet and light it on fire.

      You seem to be attached to the money that you put into the pot in previous streets. That money is no longer yours and you can't feel entitled to it. The money is in the middle and all thats up to you now is to make the best decision possible, not trying to save the money you already put in.

      You also seem to feel ''commited to c-betting'' because you 3bet preflop and if you check it seems like your giving up. Noone is forcing you to cbet and your alowed to just c/f after 3-betting. There's a lot of players that seem to have this problem and have c-bet in 3bet pots over 90%. If your c-bet is that high your c-bet succes will also go down and ppl will bluff raise you and float you more often.

      Also with betsizing like hackett mentioned. If your c-betting 1/2 pot you only need 25% c-bet succes while your need 30% with 2/3rd bet. You also can't 3barrel if you c.bet over 1/2 pot since your left with like 30% potbet on the river and no FE if you go with 2/3rds on flop and turn.

      The way you have to think about it is for example.
      You 3bet AK to get value from a fish whose going to call with worse, since your hand equity is ahead of his 3-bet calling range. Now once you get to the flop against this fish there is no need to c-bet if his not going to fold his 22, probably not even if you double barrel and he might even hero call the river show. The times you get money from him is when you both flop A or K and his dominated and you get to stack him.
      You can't just c-bet for the sake of c-betting against someone whose not going to fold. You have to forget about the money that you put in already and make the best decision on the current street. And if a guy folds 10% vs cbet then c-betting is cleary a bad decision and you should just take a free card or just c/f.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
      Could you please throw some more light on that.
      Hey,

      I'll elaborate an answer a bit later about your main concern. Gonna go watch Bute vs Froch on TV. :D

      When it comes to this though there's a really short answer: Nowhere in your description of situations have you talked about your opponent's tendencies or your image, only board and your hand.

      Regards,
      Manu.
      Hi, I thought it was implied that I C-Bet only into people who fold to C-Bet. I rely on Fold to C-Bet% stat for that. I usually play a TAG game. I'll give you a common situation.

      I'm in the SB or BB and someone opens from BTN or CO. I first check his fold to 3-Bet stat. If its low then I go ahead and 3-Bet. If its high I might just call and try to get another bet out of him. So say his fold to 3-Bet stat is low and I 3-Bet, he calls.

      I check his fold to C-Bet% stats on flop and turn also his overall AF. If I have a good sample I also see his bet vs. missed C-Bet to see if he likes to float. If he has a high fold to C-Bet then I fire one comfortably. If he calls a lot of flop C-Bets and folds to Turn C-Bets then I have already prepared myself for 2 barrels. The problem I would face was that after firing two streets I'd have half my stack in but as it has been pointed out I should reduce my bet size on the flop and turn.

      If he calls a lot to both flop and turn C-Bets then I refrain from firing my C-Bets. Usually this is the type of opponent who is passive and like to go till showdown.

      As far as board goes I am more comfortable firing on a one high card and two low card boards rather then all three low card boards since with all three low cards I guess the opponent will have a lot of pocket pairs in his range that he will call flop with. With one high card on the flop I can represent a TP kind of hand.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Bet sizing is the least of his problems. His main problem is the way he thinks about the game. Just from this post its quite obvious that his poker logic is seriously flawed.
      Could you please throw some more light on that.
      Well your obviously don't know the reasons to c-bet. Its either for value when you have a value hand or as a bluff when you don't. Now even if AK high can sometimes be a value hand most of the time its actually a semi-bluff with 4.5 outs.

      Now when to bluff or semi-bluff? Obviously against people who have a decent folding range. 3-betting AK and then c-betting it vs the fish whose never gonna fold a pair is like taking money out of your vallet and light it on fire.

      You seem to be attached to the money that you put into the pot in previous streets. That money is no longer yours and you can't feel entitled to it. The money is in the middle and all thats up to you now is to make the best decision possible, not trying to save the money you already put in.

      You also seem to feel ''commited to c-betting'' because you 3bet preflop and if you check it seems like your giving up. Noone is forcing you to cbet and your alowed to just c/f after 3-betting. There's a lot of players that seem to have this problem and have c-bet in 3bet pots over 90%. If your c-bet is that high your c-bet succes will also go down and ppl will bluff raise you and float you more often.

      Also with betsizing like hackett mentioned. If your c-betting 1/2 pot you only need 25% c-bet succes while your need 30% with 2/3rd bet. You also can't 3barrel if you c.bet over 1/2 pot since your left with like 30% potbet on the river and no FE if you go with 2/3rds on flop and turn.

      The way you have to think about it is for example.
      You 3bet AK to get value from a fish whose going to call with worse, since your hand equity is ahead of his 3-bet calling range. Now once you get to the flop against this fish there is no need to c-bet if his not going to fold his 22, probably not even if you double barrel and he might even hero call the river show. The times you get money from him is when you both flop A or K and his dominated and you get to stack him.
      You can't just c-bet for the sake of c-betting against someone whose not going to fold. You have to forget about the money that you put in already and make the best decision on the current street. And if a guy folds 10% vs cbet then c-betting is cleary a bad decision and you should just take a free card or just c/f.
      Thanks for the detailed post. I do try to plan my hand according to the opponents stats like I just mentioned but sometimes I do end up C-Betting in 3-Bet pots a lot thinking I have to C-Bet, you're right there, definitely a leak. Many times I have fired a lot against fish too which is why I have started to use this procedure of checking his fold to C-Bet and call C-Bet% stats and plan the hand accordingly. Now I don't fire against fish or passive players.

      The problem I face is on a Q high board an opponent hits a hand like AQ and KQ. Say he usually calls flop C-Bets and folds to turn C-Bets and isn't a fish and not passive. So I prepare myself to fire two streets to get him to fold. He's gonna call my turn bet too and then all I can do is check/fold river and its happened a lot recently and gets a bit frustrating which is why I made this post.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      As far as board goes I am more comfortable firing on a one high card and two low card boards rather then all three low card boards since with all three low cards I guess the opponent will have a lot of pocket pairs in his range that he will call flop with. With one high card on the flop I can represent a TP kind of hand.
      Why do you asume his range contains a lot of PP? If he calls 15-20% of hands preflop and PP represent 4% of total handcombos, and with 3 cards out there that are sets PP are only about 3% of total hands or about 15% of his 3bet calling range. Also the low boards where he might float you with 2 overs or a low overpair thats gonna get overcarded give you a lot of barreling spots on turn and river and you still have 30% equity for when he has a pair.



      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      The problem I face is on a Q high board an opponent hits a hand like AQ and KQ. Say he usually calls flop C-Bets and folds to turn C-Bets and isn't a fish and not passive. So I prepare myself to fire two streets to get him to fold. He's gonna call my turn bet too and then all I can do is check/fold river and its happened a lot recently and gets a bit frustrating which is why I made this post.
      This is another problem you seem to have. Do you really expect people to call AQ, KQ preflop, then flop a top pair and actually fold to c-bet? You will never get anybody off AQ on Qxxxxx flop in a 3-bet pot or even KQ for that matter. People just don't like to fold.

      This is also your mindset/logic problem. You expect him to fold because he ''should'' fold or because you would in his spot. But you have to ask yourself why should he fold. I mean what kind of hand range does your double barrel represents? If he has AQ on Q572 flop and you double barrel the only hands in your 3betting range that have him beat are KK and AA so your representing excatly 2 hands or 0.9% handrange while your 3bet range in LP is probably at least 5% even if your a super nit.

      You really have to work on range's players are calling and 3-betting with and what kind of hands you represent when barreling. You can just say to yourself ''well i represent AA in this spot by my tripple barrel'' when in reality your 3bet vs BU is 15% and you only have AA one out of 30 times.
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I do need to work on ranges, I've been ignoring this subject for some time. Anyway thanks a lot for your comments, they'll definitely help me fix these leaks.

      This is another problem you seem to have. Do you really expect people to call AQ, KQ preflop, then flop a top pair and actually fold to c-bet? You will never get anybody off AQ on Qxxxxx flop in a 3-bet pot or even KQ for that matter. People just don't like to fold.


      Yeah I'm being a bit irrational unreasonable here. I'm gonna choose my C-Betting line more carefully now, earlier I'd fire a lot of C-Bets in 3-Bet pots and people would fold and I guess I developed this leak from there. I think I C-Bet in raised pots a lot too and need to pick my spots more carefully.