What winrates are achievable with MSS at various stakes?

    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Hey guys, it seems to me that MSS has a really low user-base.. Still, I like it, but am curious what winrates are achievable at various levels now, at 2012.. Because it's impossible to like go to 2+2, or some big forum and check these stats, because as far as I know MSS isn't that popular on the net.

      Would be good if you guys that are already playing it and have already a large volumes of hand share with us your experiences..

      Like:

      NL2: FR ~4-6bb's/100
      SH ~5-7bb's/100

      NL5: FR ~4-5bb's/100
      SH ~5-6bb's/100

      NL10: FR ~3-4bb's/100
      SH ~4-5bb's/100
      ...
      NL200: FR ~2-3bb's/100
      SH ~3bb's/100

      (Obviously the numbers are just examples, and I really only wanted to show off a struct that could be used..)

      Thanks!
  • 13 replies
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Hey,

      Quick retrieval from my hEM:
      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100 - winnings $80.72

      on 25NL I only have 371 hands ($4.66 winnings, 5bb/100 ) so that's virtually no sample

      - Gerv
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Anything above 0bb/100 is fine. You really cant get much of an edge playing MSS and with the rake being way higher for you since your pots are fully raked because you don't reach the cap your just hoping to be a breakeven RB grinder.
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      Cheers guys!

      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100

      From this it seems that a nice winrate could be made at NL5 or lower?

      Anything above 0bb/100 is fine. You really cant get much of an edge playing MSS and with the rake being way higher for you since your pots are fully raked because you don't reach the cap your just hoping to be a breakeven RB grinder.

      I know I can't expect much, and that my winrate with MSS will be much lower than with BSS, but still I don't think that my aim as a MSS player should be to be BreakEven grinder.. I mean, I think 4-6bb's/100 is the low end of it, at least on micros, correct me if I'm wrong..
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by eXtremeACE
      Cheers guys!

      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100

      From this it seems that a nice winrate could be made at NL5 or lower?

      Anything above 0bb/100 is fine. You really cant get much of an edge playing MSS and with the rake being way higher for you since your pots are fully raked because you don't reach the cap your just hoping to be a breakeven RB grinder.

      I know I can't expect much, and that my winrate with MSS will be much lower than with BSS, but still I don't think that my aim as a MSS player should be to be BreakEven grinder.. I mean, I think 4-6bb's/100 is the low end of it, at least on micros, correct me if I'm wrong..
      A 5bb winrate is pretty much what every BSS reg that plays nl50-nl1k aims for. If you go on PTR there's only like 10-20 players that have over 5bb winrates on nl100 to nl1k and those are the best regs on their limits. Most regs are around 2-4bb which is pretty decent this days. The times where people we're making 10bb+ are long gone.

      Personally i haven't seen any of the MSS'ers that have over 1bb winrate on PTR with a big sample size's.
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      A 5bb winrate is pretty much what every BSS reg that plays nl50-nl1k aims for. If you go on PTR there's only like 10-20 players that have over 5bb winrates on nl100 to nl1k and those are the best regs on their limits. Most regs are around 2-4bb which is pretty decent this days. The times where people we're making 10bb+ are long gone. Personally i haven't seen any of the MSS'ers that have over 1bb winrate on PTR with a big sample size's.


      That makes sense MatejM47, but that's at nl100-nl1k level.. I'm talking here mostly about microstakes (NL2, NL5, NL10 and perhaps NL25) when I wonder if making 5-7bb's/100 is possible with MSS..

      You have to remember that NL5, for example, is ridicilous.. You have players there that will call your all-in preflop with 93s..

      Known players:
      SB:
      $3.95
      BB:
      $5.19
      UTG1:
      $4.92
      UTG2:
      $9.94
      MP1:
      $2
      MP2:
      $10.2
      MP3:
      $5.56
      CO:
      $12.61
      Hero:
      $2.12

      0.02/0.05 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.106 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is BU with Q:heart: , Q:diamond:
      UTG1 folds, UTG2 calls $0.05, MP1 calls $0.05, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, SB folds, BB raises to $0.60, UTG2 calls $0.55, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $2.12 (All-In), BB folds, UTG2 calls $1.52.

      Flop: ($4.91) Q:spade: , 8:club: , 4:spade:
      Turn: ($4.91) 3:diamond:
      River: ($4.91) 4:club: (2 players)


      Final Pot: $4.91

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      UTG2 shows (9s 3s)
      Hero shows a full-house, queens full of fours (Qh Qd)

      Hero wins with a full-house, queens full of fours (Qh Qd)

      Surely you can't find that kind of donks at nl100-nl1k. :D These donks must add a few bb's/100 to my winrate for sure.. :D
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah maybe on micros. But you have to remember that all that fishines has to make up for the fact that your raking 10-15bb/100 depending on site/limit. As a mss thats 2-3BI every 1k hands.
    • eXtremeACE
      eXtremeACE
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.02.2011 Posts: 267
      That's true, rake is a killer in general, tho I have no idea how PokerStars (there I play) operates taking rake across different stakes.. :/
    • scett
      scett
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.01.2010 Posts: 65
      Just moved to nl5 on stars. Winrate on nl2 about 10-15 bb/100 over 35k hands and 50$ in winnings.
    • Gerv
      Gerv
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 17,678
      Originally posted by scett
      Just moved to nl5 on stars. Winrate on nl2 about 10-15 bb/100 over 35k hands and 50$ in winnings.
      :f_thumbsup:
    • pepeelpewRNMD
      pepeelpewRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2009 Posts: 48
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Hey,

      Quick retrieval from my hEM:
      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100 - winnings $80.72

      on 25NL I only have 371 hands ($4.66 winnings, 5bb/100 ) so that's virtually no sample

      - Gerv
      Your game is sticked to the Basic Articles?
      How it is now on the 25NL?
      Thanks
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Diamond
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,078
      Originally posted by pepeelpewRNMD
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Hey,

      Quick retrieval from my hEM:
      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100 - winnings $80.72

      on 25NL I only have 371 hands ($4.66 winnings, 5bb/100 ) so that's virtually no sample

      - Gerv
      Your game is sticked to the Basic Articles?
      How it is now on the 25NL?
      Thanks
      As Gerv isn't around anymore hopefully you don't mind me to trying to answer you at least your first question.

      He was a PokerStrategy coach, so his game was advanced and very good ofc. He didn't follow a chart in his coachings. In my opinion you cannot have much profit on higher limits playing abc chart poker as opponents are getting better. I had played standart tight MSS on NL4 but was forced to change my game completely to survive on NL10.

      I would like to know how different is NL25 compared to NL10 as I'm thinking about moving up.
    • pepeelpewRNMD
      pepeelpewRNMD
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.05.2009 Posts: 48
      Originally posted by JohnDoe1313
      Originally posted by pepeelpewRNMD
      Originally posted by Gerv
      Hey,

      Quick retrieval from my hEM:
      10NL : 7508 hands (from my November 2011 coachings till now) 10bb/100 - winnings $80.72

      on 25NL I only have 371 hands ($4.66 winnings, 5bb/100 ) so that's virtually no sample

      - Gerv
      Your game is sticked to the Basic Articles?
      How it is now on the 25NL?
      Thanks
      As Gerv isn't around anymore hopefully you don't mind me to trying to answer you at least your first question.

      He was a PokerStrategy coach, so his game was advanced and very good ofc. He didn't follow a chart in his coachings. In my opinion you cannot have much profit on higher limits playing abc chart poker as opponents are getting better. I had played standart tight MSS on NL4 but was forced to change my game completely to survive on NL10.

      I would like to know how different is NL25 compared to NL10 as I'm thinking about moving up.
      Thank you JohnDoe1313. It is nice to know I though that abc MSS would work until 100NL :rolleyes: .

      But it is ok, it is nice to know about it before trying.

      What you think I should do then? I'll go to MSS advanced for NL25+? Or you have other idea?
    • JohnDoe1313
      JohnDoe1313
      Diamond
      Joined: 04.01.2011 Posts: 5,078
      My feeling from your posts is you would like to keep poker simple following a chart and make tons of money. In my opinion this doesn't work that way. If you want to be a winning player you need to study the game and work hard. SHC is just a guide to get you an idea how to start your poker carrier. I would advise you to go "advanced" even on NL2 by watching videos, analysing your opponents and aiming for the best decisions.