How to overcome being "results oriented"

    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,415
      In everything I do EXCEPT poker, I'm expected to be mindful of the results.

      Regardless of what my sig says, I DO care.

      As far as I can tell, I don't make hand-by-hand decisions expecting results, and I don't THINK I'm changing my style based on whether I'm up or down in a session.

      However, I will quit early if I'm substantially up, and I sometimes extend a session if I'm down.

      But long term -- Jan to May this year, on both Party and Stars, I am losing.

      I don't THINK that losing the money is a problem. I'm only playing NL 2, with a bankroll of about $600. I built that bankroll with bonuses playing $11 DoNs with a decent ROI, and about 20K hands of NL 10.

      I went "back to the basics" at the beginning of the year after taking a horrid shot at NL 50, then NL 25. I only lost 3 BI at each, but I was so hopeless I wanted to "start over".

      However that isn't working out either :)

      How do you "not care"?
  • 23 replies
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
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      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      Don't look at results for a month or so.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Don't look at results for a month or so.
      +1... or look at results only once a week to begin with. It will be weird at first, but try to commit to it and make a habit out of it.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
      Originally posted by NightFrostaSS
      Don't look at results for a month or so.
      +1... or look at results only once a week to begin with. It will be weird at first, but try to commit to it and make a habit out of it.
      Sorry, I should have mentioned this.
      I look at my overall graphs on the weekends only.
      The problem is, I pretty much know where I'm at as I go along.
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      WHY do you care about results? Think about that. Take time and really think about that.
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 158
      Why wouldn't you care about results?

      We play Poker to win money don't we? If we are losing money then your bound to start caring.

      Also why is it a bad thing to care? If you don't care about your results then you have no motivation to learn from your mistakes and improve your game.
    • hooley01
      hooley01
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      Joined: 25.09.2011 Posts: 48
      Personally I've turned up the opacity of my HUD and use it to cover how much is in my stack. Also in hm1 my results are grouped monthly instead of a session by session, or day by day breakdown.
      Works for me!
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      We're talking about the short term results here. The goal should be to win the money in the long run, so you should be more focused on improving your game than how much you won/lost this session (which is exactly what OP is talking about).

      Of course the results do matter in a way that you should review the hands where you've lost a lot of money to find leaks (although you should of course review other hands where you've won money as well). But when we're talking about being result oriented we mostly talk about variance.

      If you were results oriented, winning a lot of money would mean that you are good. So if you were on an upswing, you could think that you're doing good, not invest time into reviewing and learning, and then face reality when a downswing comes and destroy your bankroll.

      You should worry about results in the long term more than in the short term. If you're losing for half a year or a year, you're probably doing something very wrong. But if you've just lost a lot in one session or two, it could either mean that you are actually spewing a lot, or you could play perfectly and still lose 10BI in PLO for example.

      The problem with poker is that the result of a hand/session rarely tells you much. For example, if you have a losing session you could have been card dead. You could have been unlucky in a way that you ran into the nuts with 2nd nuts all the time. You could have had a couple of bad beats. Or, you could have actually played terrible. The number of money won/lost in a session won't tell you any of these things. Reviewing sessions, posting hands in hand evaluation forums, coachings, private coachings, sweat sessions and strategy discussions will.

      I think a lot of people actually have motivation in form of competition, being the best, etc. If money is primary motivation for you, you're in big trouble... Money alone won't bring you happiness. Motivation can be found in things that you need money for, like financial independence, freedom, health or helping people, but in money alone, you will only get limited motivation and a lot of frustration if you start losing it.

      People play poker to win money, and then do some stuff with that money. Some people play just for fun. Some people like challenges and want to improve thier game so that they could for example win a sunday million. There are many different things that you can play poker for... Sure, money is one of them. But it won't get you all that far on it's own...

      You can simply not care about results by reviewing your game frequently and trying to improve and fix leaks. If you play well and keep improving, results will come eventually anyway ;) . Poker isn't a game where you could force winnings in the short term. You can't decide to have a winning session. That's why winning money shouldn't be your short term focus, but long term focus. And for that, you need to have your short term focus on improving your game (and should never stop doing it).

      At least that is my point of view... I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but that is how I see things. If anyone else has a different view, enlighten me :) .

      -SF
    • Schnitzelfisch
      Schnitzelfisch
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      Joined: 08.11.2008 Posts: 4,952
      Originally posted by hooley01
      Personally I've turned up the opacity of my HUD and use it to cover how much is in my stack. Also in hm1 my results are grouped monthly instead of a session by session, or day by day breakdown.
      Works for me!
      Are you playing FL? Because in NL or PLO, you kind of have to know what size your stacks are (if you're playing deep or not), which is unfortunate since you can't cover them...

      Covering stacks is great for FL though, I've used it myself while I still played it and it's awesome :) .

      -SF
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,415
      Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
      WHY do you care about results? Think about that. Take time and really think about that.
      Several reasons came to mind:
      :spade:   Habit. I have a science background, and the "scientific method" uses [experiment, check results, adjust experiment] repeat as necessary.
      :spade:   Competitiveness (ok, ok, ego). I like to be good at what I do.
      :spade:   Money. I have been dirt poor in the past, and their may be some element of that experience still around -- though I don't really think so.
      :spade:   Pride? Although I'm humble, mild-mannered and modest (*) there is something about a graph with a negative-slope trend line that just isn't me.
      :spade:   My reason for playing poker is the challenge, and the fulfilment one gets from acquiring a new skill and mastering it. If that is the goal, then I'm far from it, long after I expected to "be there".

      Also, I read your explanation to darkpenance0 who asked "Why wouldn't you care about results?".

      From that I realized that I may have misunderstood "results oriented".
      Session over session I'm not too concerned with.
      I am looking at a 4 month trend, and if the goal is "improving your game", then I think that in a nutshell, I'm not improving.

      That conclusion suggests the next course of action:  study
      I might add some study to that, and maybe if I have extra time, maybe study a bit.
















      (*)If you're interested in prime moose pasture for sale in N Canada, PM me.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
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      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by hooley01
      Personally I've turned up the opacity of my HUD and use it to cover how much is in my stack.
      Thats the dumbest thing i read in a while lol. How do you know how many BB deep are you playing at any given time? what if your 300BB effective and you don't even know it?
    • mccol001
      mccol001
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      Joined: 31.07.2010 Posts: 170
      I hate checking my graph/BR as often as I do, but how else am I supposed to know when to move up/down without checking? :) I've had long sessions where it felt mostly breakeven then I look at my graph and I've been crushing it, and of course had the days where I've been crushed.

      Also how would you go about a stop-loss if you can't see how you are doing? I'm kinda trying a 5 BI Stop-loss at the moment... :)
    • hooley01
      hooley01
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      Joined: 25.09.2011 Posts: 48
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by hooley01
      Personally I've turned up the opacity of my HUD and use it to cover how much is in my stack.
      Thats the dumbest thing i read in a while lol. How do you know how many BB deep are you playing at any given time? what if your 300BB effective and you don't even know it?
      Just to clarify that I'm playing zoom so if i win a decent sized pot i just rathole it and start again and i have autorebuy on obviously.
    • gadget51
      gadget51
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      Joined: 23.06.2008 Posts: 5,622
      If it doesn't affect my mindset to check my results, I can't see what the fuss is about.

      Regards,

      Mal.
    • sinsas
      sinsas
      Gold
      Joined: 22.09.2009 Posts: 380
      Originally posted by hooley01
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by hooley01
      Personally I've turned up the opacity of my HUD and use it to cover how much is in my stack.
      Thats the dumbest thing i read in a while lol. How do you know how many BB deep are you playing at any given time? what if your 300BB effective and you don't even know it?
      Just to clarify that I'm playing zoom so if i win a decent sized pot i just rathole it and start again and i have autorebuy on obviously.
      than what's the point of masking the stack ?

      cool story bro :coolface:
    • hooley01
      hooley01
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.09.2011 Posts: 48


      than what's the point of masking the stack ?

      cool story bro :coolface:
      This:
      As far as I can tell, I don't make hand-by-hand decisions expecting results, and I don't THINK I'm changing my style based on whether I'm up or down in a session.
      just seems to work for me thats all.
      Thanks bro :pokerface:
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Silver
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Start maintaining a spreadsheet where your record your daily results. Also start a column where you rate your overall game that you played. Over time you'll start focusing on the rating and you'll be happy on the days when you played well and rated yourself higher even though you might not have won a lot. You will still be result oriented but now your result and success will be measured in terms of the rating you give yourself instead of your daily profit or loss.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
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      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,415
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Start maintaining a spreadsheet where your record your daily results. Also start a column where you rate your overall game that you played. Over time you'll start focusing on the rating and you'll be happy on the days when you played well and rated yourself higher even though you might not have won a lot. You will still be result oriented but now your result and success will be measured in terms of the rating you give yourself instead of your daily profit or loss.
      I like that idea.
      I used to keep a sheet of daily results when I was doing the beginner course, but then I got HEM, so stopped. What was missing though was the rating.
      I think that doing that and basing it on a meaningful session review would work.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Silver
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,978
      Originally posted by maheepsangari
      Start maintaining a spreadsheet where your record your daily results. Also start a column where you rate your overall game that you played. Over time you'll start focusing on the rating and you'll be happy on the days when you played well and rated yourself higher even though you might not have won a lot. You will still be result oriented but now your result and success will be measured in terms of the rating you give yourself instead of your daily profit or loss.
      Solid advice :s_thumbsup:
    • William340
      William340
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2012 Posts: 170
      Originally posted by VorpalF2F
      In everything I do EXCEPT poker, I'm expected to be mindful of the results.

      Regardless of what my sig says, I DO care.

      As far as I can tell, I don't make hand-by-hand decisions expecting results, and I don't THINK I'm changing my style based on whether I'm up or down in a session.

      However, I will quit early if I'm substantially up, and I sometimes extend a session if I'm down.

      But long term -- Jan to May this year, on both Party and Stars, I am losing.

      I don't THINK that losing the money is a problem. I'm only playing NL 2, with a bankroll of about $600. I built that bankroll with bonuses playing $11 DoNs with a decent ROI, and about 20K hands of NL 10.

      I went "back to the basics" at the beginning of the year after taking a horrid shot at NL 50, then NL 25. I only lost 3 BI at each, but I was so hopeless I wanted to "start over".

      However that isn't working out either :)

      How do you "not care"?
      I know I am late to the party, but I always interpreted "not being results oriented" differently.
      I looked at it on more of a hand by hand or even decision by decision basis.
      did you make the right play given the information available.
      if "yes", then you are playing well, even if the immediate result was bad.
      (say the fish sucked out, or the LAGtard was at the top of his range).
      if "no", then you are playing poorly, even if you are winning.
      (you suck out after getting in way behind, or your poorly conceived bluff somehow works)
      in this case there was a good result, but your play was bad.

      I never thought that it could/should be interpreted as not caring about whether you won or lost (overall) in the long term.

      I'll think about it before, but I'm fairly certain I'm right and you're wrong. ;)
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