Reading inexperienced players.

    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      Hi everyone,

      This thread is about my never-ending struggle to read inexperienced players.

      Last night I played in a live tournament at my local casino eventually finishing 4th but for the large majority of the tournament, I'd say up until just before the final table I found myself on tilt. The main reason being, my disability to read my opponents. I feel this because they are IMO weak, inexperienced and seem to act off impulse and emotion thus therefore actually creating a psychological block in my mind as how to get a read and put these guys on a hand.

      I feel like its impossible to put these guys on a hand and instead I just have focus on myself and forget about my opponents and that's exactly how not be successful.

      Does anyone else play in their local casino and also have similar problems?
  • 50 replies
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
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      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      Yeah this is very simple, if they dont know what or why they are doing something how the fuck are you suposed to know.
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      Ha ha good point. It's like they lack that much knowledge it has a reverse effect making them good/hard to play against.

      I feel like each time I walk into the casino if my luck isn't in I'll never win and so it takes off 30% of the 60% skill required to be a good poker player.

      I get the sense if I'm not psychic there is very little chance that I'm able to put the majority of the players on a hand therefore having a strategy consisting of consistency, gameplan and focus is useless.
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
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      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,922
      Hi guys,

      Just moving this thread to the more relevant board :)
    • RasTweet
      RasTweet
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      Joined: 26.12.2009 Posts: 4,553
      Hi BlueZizou18

      I find it very hard to play vs complete whales hard as well! You just have to find out how they play I guess. If they are passive and fold a lot just cbet the whole time if they are aggressive play your value hands and let them donk all the money way...

      Pleno1 made a video where he talks a bit about live poker.
      Pleno1's video

      We also have some articles about live poker.
      Live poker articles

      Best of luck on the tables!

      RasTweet
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      Nice one mate.

      Do you read any books and if so do you have any recommendations? I mean at the moment it's a complete learning curve but I love learning. I'm 19 and I feel if I put the hours in, listen to people like you around me, read books/articles, I can make some good money.
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
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      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      You should never lose money from Poker.

      So long as you BR and don't play out of your means you will make a profit.

      I've never lost money playing poker and don't understand how people can really, sure I've never made a fortune but my BR is slowly and steadily creeping upwards.

      I think anyone who has joined this site or others like it should not lose money.

      I have a similar problem when it comes to inexperienced players, all you can really do is play your good hands for value, bluffing in my experience is usually a losing play. It might seem very passive but against certain players just play 100% honestly and if you have Top Pair decent kicker or better then just bet out for value, no check raises or anything fancy.

      Usually in those kind of games you will get some good players, the trick is to spot who they are straight away because against them you can try and be a bit fancy so long as you bear in mind that there is plenty of dead money out there, so taking big risks against good players is not necessary.
    • ThatGuyMatt
      ThatGuyMatt
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      Joined: 03.12.2010 Posts: 3,758
      A book that I've seen some good reviews on is: Caro's Book of Tells, the Body Language and Psychology of Poker, could probably pick it up quite cheap too :)
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      What buy-ins do you usually do darkpenance?

      Because I think the larger the buy-in the better the players and at the moment I don't play for large buy-ins as I'm young.

      Thanks for the book mate. In gonna buy one soon so maybe that.
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      I think all of the information, tips and if I read poker books is all useless for the poker I play because I'm not playing against established and experienced players, instead I'm playing against people whose decisions are mainly off the cuff. Therefore if I don't learn to improvise I will just lose frequently.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by BlueZizou18
      I think all of the information, tips and if I read poker books is all useless for the poker I play because I'm not playing against established and experienced players, instead I'm playing against people whose decisions are mainly off the cuff. Therefore if I don't learn to improvise I will just lose frequently.
      Well then, just play ABC poker.
      Your opponents are whales. That the single biggest tell. No need to get fancy. It is super easy to beat fish honestly. You know their hand range is super loose right? You'll get equity with any two playable cards against this range. No need for further tells IMO.
      Complete ABC poker.
      That means no hero calls, no bluffs, not even light c-bets, no light value betting. If they are really bad you don't need any advanced stuff. Just play tight, play aggressive.

      You'll probably experience a jaw dropping variance but you're sure to win on the long run.

      I read somewhere on this forum (or maybe 2p2); playing against fish it's essential to put in a lot of volume. I think it's true.
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      What do you mean by volume?
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Volume = Number of hands.

      To determine your win-rate or draw any conclusions you need around 20k hands.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Oh and answer to OP,
      Don't waste your time trying to read fishes.

      Play ABC take their money and move up the stakes.
      Happy grinding.

      (BTW, are drinks free in a Brick and Mortar Casino?)
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      Ok mate. See this is the dilemma, what you're saying I've actually already been doing, trying to play hands as much as possible, basically putting aside the essentials of poker, I.e. position and just improvising throughout the hand and if I'm not lucky (which I very rarely am) I find myself on tilt.

      So, adapting and playing ABC and lack of luck=tilt & playing the essentials to proper poker=useless play because others don't play like that. Therefore in conclusion it rests mostly on luck.
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      I'm not familiar with that term but yes the drinks are free. Not beer though.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
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      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      you normally get free sanies too unless your name is Luke,

      as for live reads go, like online you need to pay attention, live is very slow so you have no excuses not to pay attention and watch how they play what they call down with how much they bet etc etc,

      i notice a lot of new young players think its all about bluffing, if it makes no sense then its pretty likey they are bluffing

      they like to act, watch them, if their gestures seem fales/put on then they are, so they are trying to fool you, so they act strong when they are weak and visa versa,

      watch players expressions a face tells a story, natural expressions are very hard to replicate without looking false, just watch people in every day stuff the info is there you just need to look for it.

      i know when my girlfriend lies to me because she lifts here eyebrows and looks upwards just for a split second
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      'sanies,' people by mine call them that, where are you from?

      The thing is because you're up against players who have little or no foundation to their game, it's difficult to them. For e.g. If I was playing a strong, experienced player with good game knowledge then raising with say K 10 under the gun wouldn't be a good move for him and he would become nervous but if a weak player did this they wouldn't think it was bad play and therefore they don't think it's bluffing, so to work out someone's tells and how to read them you have to workout their knowledge/gameplan and the majority have very little of this.

      So, reinforcing what I said previously it's mostly luck. Without moaning too much I wouldn't say I have much luck in the casinos (with my hands) but when I do I pretty much dominate and almost certainly will get in the money.

      On the other hand, if I struggle with my hands (which I quite regularly do) I will almost certainly struggle with my overall game, which most definitely shouldn't be the case.
    • kruger32
      kruger32
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      Joined: 14.05.2011 Posts: 242
      Originally posted by BlueZizou18
      Ok mate. See this is the dilemma, what you're saying I've actually already been doing, trying to play hands as much as possible, basically putting aside the essentials of poker, I.e. position and just improvising throughout the hand and if I'm not lucky (which I very rarely am) I find myself on tilt.

      So, adapting and playing ABC and lack of luck=tilt & playing the essentials to proper poker=useless play because others don't play like that. Therefore in conclusion it rests mostly on luck.
      I beg to differ.
      It is impossible to lose in the long run playing TAG poker against fishes.

      TAG beats the fishes. That's what TAG poker is made for. If you just played profitable hands and they just called you down, you'd be ahead.
      Others don't need to play good for you to beat them with TAG style. The worse they are, the higher your winrate playing TAG. The better they play, the lower your winrate playing TAG.

      Are you sure you're TAG?
      Can you beat the micros online?
      What is your starting hand range?
      And what do you mean improvise?
      Against fishes you just fold anything but two pair or better. There is no need to improvise lines.

      Did you read all the TwoPlusTwo Puslishing's books?

      Or just read Phil Hellmuth's "Play like the Pros" book.
    • BlueZizou18
      BlueZizou18
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      Joined: 08.07.2011 Posts: 87
      What do you mean by TAG?

      Improvise meaning adjust depending on my opponent.

      I haven't read any books and until I work out how to win at least 50% of the time at the casino then I don't intend to.