[NL20-NL50] sh nl25 77

    • xoshix33
      xoshix33
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.09.2011 Posts: 348
      PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) ZOOM - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

      BTN: $25.00
      SB: $6.18
      BB: $32.26
      UTG: $49.27
      MP: $25.44
      Hero (CO): $53.06

      SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

      Pre Flop: (pot: $0.35) Hero has 7:club: 7:heart:

      fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.75, BTN raises to $2.25, fold, BB calls $2.00, Hero calls $1.50

      Flop: ($6.85, 3 players) 7:diamond: Q:spade: 9:heart:
      BB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $4.50, BB calls $4.50, Hero raises to $13.70, BTN raises to $22.75 and is all-in, fold, Hero calls $9.05

      Turn: ($56.85, 2 players) J:spade:

      River: ($56.85, 2 players) 4:heart:

      Hero shows 7:club: 7:heart: (Three of a Kind, Sevens) (Pre 18%, Flop 4%, Turn 2%)
      BTN shows 9:spade: 9:club: (Three of a Kind, Nines) (Pre 82%, Flop 96%, Turn 98%)
      BTN wins $54.85
  • 16 replies
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      How fishy are they? I'd also raise it but pretty small, to $9... It is very strong yes but we also need to protect from scarecards for them
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello xoshix33,

      Start betting the flop yourself than Check/Raise it! You just scare away a lot of hands there. Bet/Bet/Bet.

      Best Regards.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      donking? never, ever ...

      you should ask yourself - what's wider calling or cbetting range of the btn? obv cbetting range + we get much more dead money, we do NOT need to protect here...

      coz this is very safe board, only JT is a problem, however, BTN has no JT and BB maybe JTs ? he's not really calling pre JTo I think ...

      I'd also just call flop and make the c-r ott so there is no space for hero folding - such as otf ... what are you repping? exactly 99/77 you never bluff => sucks

      if you do not call 77 here, you have unprotected calling range (he will barrel you here out of the hand everytime)...

      cya
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      donking? never, ever ...
      :facepalm: Are you serious? In long run we going to show a lot more profit by that cause we also avoid them Checking behind the turn and can secure us getting their full stacks. If they have a hand they are paying you. We don't even need to bet very big but rather induce. As you may realize BB is also pretty deep, I'd want to get his whole stack.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      the very exact range btn is calling otf he's cbetting + he can easily bet a lot more combos otf if it's checked to him (and he will)... => more +EV

      I'd like the idea of donking if the board would be more drawy (so we can represent wider range and get maybe some light raises)... However on this flop? soooo faceup... ~~
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      the very exact range btn is calling otf he's cbetting + he can easily bet a lot more combos otf if it's checked to him (and he will)... => more +EV

      I'd like the idea of donking if the board would be more drawy (so we can represent wider range and get maybe some light raises)... However on this flop? soooo faceup... ~~
      BTN has shown already strength by 3betting in first place so I assume he has rather stronger range there unless he is a 3bet maniac, also we are in multiway pot, it's not that likely to expect him to CB if he didn't hit. Especially when BB flats like that unless he is a fish.

      So I'd Bet/Bet/bet and get 3 streets value while could miss value on the turn with our play Check/Call & Check/Call & Check/Call or whatever the plan of yours was. There wont be much more value from BTN anyways in long run if he doesn't have a made hand.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      it's already psb ott for btn ...

      =) w/e seems like we have different opinions ^^
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      it's already psb ott for btn ...

      =) w/e seems like we have different opinions ^^
      So you assume that will happen most of the time as I see? Kinda result oriented, ain't ya? :)
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      hehe I've expected this one :D

      nah not ro... I think that it will not be problem to get money into pot even if flop is checked ;)

      just saying that in this scenario it's just ptb for btn ... so my plan is deffo again ch/c there (still KQ, QJss in my range).. on the other hand you never donk these ;) that's why I don't like it ... it's unbalanced and the perceived range is exactly your hand => your opponents can play optimaly ... imho :o)
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      hehe I've expected this one :D

      nah not ro... I think that it will not be problem to get money into pot even if flop is checked ;)

      just saying that in this scenario it's just ptb for btn ... so my plan is deffo again ch/c there (still KQ, QJss in my range).. on the other hand you never donk these ;) that's why I don't like it ... it's unbalanced and the perceived range is exactly your hand => your opponents can play optimaly ... imho :o)
      And who said I would never donk them? Being in HU pot of course I wouldn't do that but if I assume he is not CBetting that often there I don't really see any reason to wait for his CB in first place -> let him hit some overcard/draw? Cause you can't exclude something like JT from his range nor of course some other GS type of hands. Nor from the other guy while we are with him deeper against whom I'd want to play for the stacks.

      Also if even to take into account ZOOM ranges then Betting > Check/Raising and either to Check/Call and let the opponent CB with his whole range or not is dependent how aggressive we see him.

      Also as we assume that it's ZOOM I would put him there even more likely on a stronger range which is 3betting for value.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      Well, donking here hand like QJs is 100% leak for me (in HU and 3way much bigger), what worse calls you/better folds it's just donate..
      if he's not cbetting ok, then we hope for free sd..
      but that's all different story :)


      I'm still probably not donking vs two unks, even though, it's deffo interesting line and thanks for the new perspective ^^ ...
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by KillerFishes
      Well, donking here hand like QJs is 100% leak for me (in HU and 3way much bigger), what worse calls you/better folds it's just donate..
      if he's not cbetting ok, then we hope for free sd..
      but that's all different story :)


      I'm still probably not donking vs two unks, even though, it's deffo interesting line and thanks for the new perspective ^^ ...
      If you at least would a bit concentrate on my explanations then you would get the idea why and when I would be donking. ;) Vs unknown of course I am not doing that.
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      I do concentrate, don't worry ^^

      "if I assume he is not CBetting that often there I don't really see any reason to wait for his CB in first place -> let him hit some overcard/draw?"

      if you assume this, then you hope for free sd... you will valueown yourself vs AQ,AA,KK,QQ,KQ... with your QJ ALWAYS

      we - QJ

      Q79

      AQ (8)
      AA (6)
      KK (6)
      QQ (1)
      KQ (8)

      31 combos

      let's say he calls JT,AK on your cbet (protection) (obv he's not 3betting JTo, but w/e...) it's only
      JT (8)
      AK(16)
      JJ(3)
      TT(6)

      he would have to call JT,AK,JJ,TT on our donk to make it profitable ^^ .. come on?


      => not a value bet/-ev
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      The profit doesn't come from him calling us but also us taking down the pot? Why ain't ya including the cases when we also just taking down the pot and be happy about it. Nor we right now don't even know his 3betting range to adjust our donking range. Maybe we would just 4bet in first place with QJ/KQ and not to be dominated.

      Not to mention that actually you don't even need to balance your lines on NL25 so I'd donk the flop, bet the turn and ship the river and would at least be sure that I get whole BB stack while you wont get it on the river if they Check behind and miss some from BB while he could still be able to Call down some of the hands (especially if he is bad).

      Check behind range wont Call your shove and nor BB cause then you would be over-betting. So where comes the bigger value here?
    • KillerFishes
      KillerFishes
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2010 Posts: 2,313
      :f_eek: :f_eek:


      because I have calculated all these combos which he would x/f on your donk into the calling range (which is MORE ev for you, however, not still enough!!)

      you will just make fold the worse hands and you will be called by better..

      sry I don't mean to be rude or anything, but you can't be serious?

      I'd somehow accept your donk and b/b/b w/e the ev isn't much different from the c/c or c/r imho + it's just different perspective, it's OK, and I don't mind it at all...

      However, when you're saying that you would donk QJ on Q79r into 3guys in 3bet pot just because the btn will not cbet enough (he will check back TT,JJ,AK, JT - doesn't have in range but W/E) and you don't want to let him hit overcards or draws it's probably the most fishy comment you have ever written. sry ... but it is ... I don't want to run the calculations because I don't have to (and the easiest proof is above) ... I bet everything I have that it's -EV like a foking hell.


      even if you assume he has actually no folding range and he just calls all worse it's still not a valuebet. (above)
      range - TT+,KQ,AQ+ and JT (to make it more +EV for you obv he will not 3bet it...) - it is never profitable donk .. like never ever ever ever ever .... :D



      ---------
      about the OP hand - I've explained my thoughts above I just think that we will get more dead money from BTN this way at least one-street oriented and we will have no problems to get it in :) However, oky you donk I ch/c(r)....
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Why are you trying to turn around the chat? Hopefully you read my thoughts about the donking and when and why not that I would always donk it. Also as you may have read that vs unknown I would not do that.

      We have that option on the flop, we are against very strong range which mainly consist of your range which you pointed out. Against him can we even Check/Call? :) While with donking we at least can pick up the sizing ourselves and in those spots we are even able to leave alone the hand easily while I doubt that he would be betting on the further actions very easily. But meanwhile I don't really see how you can be far-far ahead with Check/Call vs unknown while not even assuming that he is capable of CBetting wide into multiway?

      Therefore for your given ranges we should Check/Fold the flop with your game-plan? :)

      Also as I mentioned for NL25 we don't need to balance our donks so I don't even mind if I don't donk with QJ type of hands.