Would you ever fold AA preflop?

    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Hey there everyone.

      I think the title speaks for itself. I've just had a terrible run of bad luck playing 30 player $1+$0.20 SitNGo's, been knocked out 4 times in a row, every time my AA busted by something else in a race. So my question I guess is, is there ever a time you would fold AA preflop? Taking into account position in the tournament and prizemoney, etc...is there ever a reason to do it?

      Just a couple of examples:

      ----------------------------------------

      Titan Poker Prague 50/100, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Button (2130)
      SB SB (3540)
      BB (4570)
      UTG UTG (1250)
      UTG+1 Hero (1020)
      CO-1 (1150)
      CO (4490)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A:spade: A:diamond:
      UTG raises to 1250, Hero moves all-in for 1020, 3 folds, SB calls 1200, 1 fold.

      Flop (3620) 9:diamond: 9:heart: 9:spade:

      Turn (3620) K:spade:

      River (3620) K:diamond:

      SB shows A:club: K:heart:
      UTG shows 6:diamond: 6:heart:
      Hero shows A:spade: A:diamond:

      SB wins 3620 with A full house, Kings and Nines
  • 26 replies
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Example 2:

      Titan Poker Prague 30/60, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

      saw flop | saw showdown

      Button (390)
      SB (4480)
      BB (1280)
      UTG Hero (1370)
      UTG+1 UTG+1 (1250)
      MP (1180)
      MP (3680)
      CO-1 (1260)
      CO CO (1640)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG with A:heart: A:spade:
      Hero raises to 240, UTG+1 raises to 1250, 3 folds, CO moves all-in for 1640, 3 folds, Hero moves all-in for 1130.

      Flop (4350) Q:diamond: 9:club: 5:heart:

      Turn (4350) T:club:

      River (4350) J:heart:

      CO shows T:spade: Q:spade:
      Hero shows A:heart: A:spade:
      UTG+1 shows Q:heart: K:diamond:

      UTG+1 wins 4350 with A straight, King high
    • ManniXXX
      ManniXXX
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.09.2007 Posts: 707
      No, I like having a guranteed 80% edge.
    • Marky84
      Marky84
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.07.2007 Posts: 186
      http://plusev.net/d/20071126.html :D

      imo there is no way to fold in these spots, esp. in the first one. in the 2nd, vs 2 opponents i still would call - maybe if like 4 people behind you went all-in it would be +EV to lay down imo
    • mudkip
      mudkip
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.04.2008 Posts: 48
      You have 72% equity in example 1, and 75% equity in example 2. You're going to get your aces cracked occasionally, but folding when you have these kinds of odds is -EV in the long run.
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      Thanks guys, you make me feel better for bombing 4 tournies in a row :)
    • gvisi
      gvisi
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.05.2008 Posts: 5
      Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      SB: $7
      BB: $9.90
      UTG: $1.70
      UTG+1: $11.70
      MP1: $6.90
      MP2: $3.35
      Hero (CO): $2.50
      BTN: $3.75

      Pre-Flop: A:heart: A:spade: dealt to Hero (CO)
      UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.65, Hero raises to $2.50 and is All-In, UTG+1 calls $0.85

      Flop: ($5.15) K:heart: K:spade: Q:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: ($5.15) 4:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: ($5.15) K:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: $5.15 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
      UTG+1 showed K:diamond: A:diamond: (four of a kind, Kings) and WON $4.65 (+$2.15 NET)
      Hero showed A:heart: A:spade: (a full house, Kings full of Aces) and LOST (-$2.50 NET)

      bad luck ?
    • TribunCaesar
      TribunCaesar
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.04.2007 Posts: 13,264
      Originally posted by gvisi
      Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
      LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

      SB: $7
      BB: $9.90
      UTG: $1.70
      UTG+1: $11.70
      MP1: $6.90
      MP2: $3.35
      Hero (CO): $2.50
      BTN: $3.75

      Pre-Flop: A:heart: A:spade: dealt to Hero (CO)
      UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises to $1.65, Hero raises to $2.50 and is All-In, UTG+1 calls $0.85

      Flop: ($5.15) K:heart: K:spade: Q:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Turn: ($5.15) 4:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      River: ($5.15) K:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

      Results: $5.15 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
      UTG+1 showed K:diamond: A:diamond: (four of a kind, Kings) and WON $4.65 (+$2.15 NET)
      Hero showed A:heart: A:spade: (a full house, Kings full of Aces) and LOST (-$2.50 NET)

      bad luck ?
      happens
    • curnow
      curnow
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.10.2007 Posts: 1,039
      poker is all about odds & variances

      As against under pairs will win 4 times out of 5 so even if you have a bad run it will change
    • 098799
      098799
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.07.2007 Posts: 1,245
      @ the question from thread title: yeah, sure. Missclicks happen.
    • Chazza
      Chazza
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2007 Posts: 118
      This may not be exactly the conditions you are talking about, but in tournaments where there is the same prize for many places and no prizes for priors (like a super satelite where top whatever get entry.) I can see a laydown of AA preflop for all of your chips on or close to the bubble.
      There is no good chipping up to get a chiplead, you just need to make the place. Even though you may be a huge favourite, there is no reason to get involved.
      I know people will disagree but what do people think?
    • dirtyibis
      dirtyibis
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.01.2008 Posts: 51
      Yes chazza is on the money here. Only when there is a freezeout tourney where the prizes are all the same and survival is the game would you EVER fold AA pre. You would only do this when there are several all ins and folding would guarantee you a prize, otherwise, it would likely still be correct to get it all in there and cement your place. Some have argued that in a very loose environment where there are several all ins like, 7 all ins in the first hand and you feel your edge is so high that you are guaranteed to place well folding can be correct. I still think even this is absurd and I would never fold AA preflop, although it has happened to me before on occasions when ive misclicked:( . Preflop AA is the nuts, never fail to bet the nuts, and never fold the nuts, it's dumb. Keep plugging away xponentx, if you're playing well the winning rush will come
    • xponentx
      xponentx
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.02.2008 Posts: 341
      That's it i'm quitting tournaments for a while. Played 3 MTT's today, and knocked out of all of them with big hands :( Once with AA, once with KK, and once with QQ. I wouldn't mind so much if my KK or QQ was busted by AA, but it just never seems to go that way for me. This is more than variance, this is just plain back luck.

      Just for laughs:

      ----------------------

      Titan Poker 1 Freezeout 200/400, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

      saw flop | saw showdown

      CO (10970)
      CO Hero (5075)
      UTG (9372.50)
      UTG+1 (11912.49)
      MP (4295)
      CO-1 (10205)
      BB (2200)
      SB SB (12962.50)

      Preflop: Hero is in the CO with A:diamond: A:heart:
      1 fold, Hero moves all-in for 5075, 4 folds, SB calls 4875, 1 fold.

      Flop (10550) 7:heart: 2:diamond: T:heart:

      Turn (10550) J:diamond:

      River (10550) Q:heart:

      Hero shows A:diamond: A:heart:
      SB shows J:spade: J:club:

      SB wins 10550 with Three of a kind, Jacks
    • armo
      armo
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.03.2008 Posts: 451
      I think Harrington in his book wrote about one scenario when he would fold aces preflop. I think the scenario he described was that there was a satellite bubble (everyone after the bubble gets tickets to main event) and one shortstack moves all-in, one bigstack moves all in and Harrington folds aces as he assumes that villain that made the push has hand good enough to knock out shortstack. There also were long mathematical explanation how this is EV- for both bigstack and him, but I dont rember that in details :P
    • swissmoumout
      swissmoumout
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2007 Posts: 3,385
      [ ] searched

      Hypothetical situation
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      folding it in a satellite is OK in extreme bubble cases. but any other case (except truly weird cases like sonic's) AA is an instacall.

      @OP's case folding AA is a crime against humanity.

      generally speaking you will not come across a case of folding AA pre, so don't do it! :P
    • Yoghi
      Yoghi
      Black
      Joined: 10.09.2007 Posts: 14,387
      I folded AA once in a satellite, and it made me happy :)
    • arjun2001
      arjun2001
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 352
      I never folded AA preflop in a lot of SNG. They did get cracked a few times around the bubble, but then the times I did win, it made up for losses because I would usually take the chip lead and 1st place.
    • k1ngenx
      k1ngenx
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.12.2007 Posts: 40
      fold if twenty people go all in (yeh on 20max table lol) before you in a wsop sat or sommit. othewise never. aa is winnarrr
    • chenny8888
      chenny8888
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.10.2007 Posts: 19,324
      i can find (actually quite a few) spots (at low limits) to fold AA in a normal sng, but i think that people will get the wrong idea, and not understand my reasoning behind it.

      so i answer: never fold AA preflop in SNG/cash/MTT, ty ;D.
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