call 20 rule

    • joeldowey123
      joeldowey123
      Silver
      Joined: 09.06.2010 Posts: 961
      okay so lets say at nl2 we have a raise of 4x to $0.08 from a 100bb stack

      I call with pp and the pot is $0.19 (with sb and bb folding)

      how much do i need to win from opponant to make the call pre flop when i hit my set (assuming im ahead of course)

      I struggle to get value when i hit the set unless oppo has a hand like TP etc

      obvious this is down to oppo style if he is aggressive or not but ive tried various line against various oppo's and havnt quite hit the sweet spot

      also, which line to take IP and OOP

      I get that there are so many factors here, oppo style, board texture, i'm just wanting some suggestions
  • 14 replies
    • Spungeh
      Spungeh
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2011 Posts: 1,212
      Imo.. fold a set, the only way to get value from a set is if the other player has you crushed. -EV to play sets for value, just check/fold.
    • TilTmuch
      TilTmuch
      Global
      Joined: 06.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      firstly u shouldn't call with low PP's OOP :)
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Hi joeldowey123,

      I'm sorry but I don't understand your question completely.

      The Call20 rule is good, it works! You won't always get paid off when you hit a set. If you would you could call at 10:1 odds. :)

      When it comes to postflop I can't really suggest anything because there are too many factors to weigh, like you also mentioned. Just bet big against passive players, that's the best general advice I can give.

      Cheers,
      Manu.
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      calling OOP with a low pp is fine so long as you have confidence that if you call it induces others behind you to call as well. If you miss your set then its an easy check fold, if you hit then you potentially can double your stack.

      If its been folded to you then don't just call, if you really wanna play it then reraise representing something better than a small pp, if you get called then your set is very well hidden because they will be putting you on AK, or a high pair. Often times the initial raiser will just fold to your reraise if they have something like J10, KJ, QJ, K10, even AJ and AQ might fold depending on the player.

      Of course you cant do this to often or else you will just be raised back pre flop and have to fold.
    • joeldowey123
      joeldowey123
      Silver
      Joined: 09.06.2010 Posts: 961
      thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

      What my initial question was this

      If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by joeldowey123
      thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

      What my initial question was this

      If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?
      You hit a set about once every 10 times, so if you get 10x more into the pot you are already +EV. The 20x rule is because you will often fold incorrectly against your opponent's specific hand (but correctly against his range) and need to make up for it with implied odds when you flop your hand.
    • janalissako
      janalissako
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2011 Posts: 224
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      Originally posted by joeldowey123
      thanks for your answer darkpenance0 and Emanual

      What my initial question was this

      If villain (100bb) raises to 4x pre and i call to set mine, how much more needs to go into pot for it to be +EV for my pre flop call, or has he given me the odds already pre flop?
      You hit a set about once every 10 times, so if you get 10x more into the pot you are already +EV. The 20x rule is because you will often fold incorrectly against your opponent's specific hand (but correctly against his range) and need to make up for it with implied odds when you flop your hand.

      The numbers are wrong !!! if u have a pocketpair preflop u flop a set 1 out of 8,5 and a set or better 1 out of 7,5 times and to the river even 1 out of 5. if u call vs agressive opponents u have to fold very often if u dont hit ur set, but its also easier to get value vs these players.
      as darkpenance said if u are the preflopaggressor its easier to play cause even if u doesnt hit u can take the pot down with a contibet but u shouldnt 3 bet with small pp at nl2 to often cause they didnt fold that often to a 3 bet.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      How is about 10% wrong when comparing to exactly 11.7%?
    • janalissako
      janalissako
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2011 Posts: 224
      sorry that i said wrong but , i think its not good to say that there is only a10% chance of getting a set when u got 12,5% to flop a set or better and this is the important number and 1 out of 7,5 is a big different i think, especially because u forget to said on the flop cause to the river its 1 out of 5 and then it is a really big different right?
      sorry for my bad english .
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Actually, it's 11.7% of flopping a set or better. It's a number hard to remember as a beginner and as a person who doesn't base poker decisions on very fine maths.

      The problem is also it doesn't account for set over set. Knowing you have about 10% is a very close, easy to remember estimate if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

      Didn't want to seem too mean but your '!!!' made it seems like screaming at 1.7% difference that doesn't account for the set not being the best hand. :)

      Cheers.
    • joeldowey123
      joeldowey123
      Silver
      Joined: 09.06.2010 Posts: 961
      thanks for clearing that up guys, much appreciated! :s_cool:
    • variancekiller
      variancekiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2010 Posts: 896
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

      Cheers.
      I don't think you are correct with this part at all, set over set will happen indeed, but you have to know that it will happen an equal amount of times in your favor as it happens to the opponents favour. So you can count set over set out of this discussion!
    • josvdk
      josvdk
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.06.2009 Posts: 37
      And can you apply the call 20 rule only to the initial raiser or to other callers too. for example:

      Hand Information
      No Limit, 0.02 BB (9 handed).
      Hand History converter courtesy of pokerhandreplays.com

      Table Information
      Seat: 1 Player 1 ($2.49)
      Seat: 2 Player 2 ($2.06)
      Seat: 3 Player 3 ($2.92)
      Seat: 4 Player 4 ($0.49)
      Seat: 5 Player 5 ($0.21)
      Seat: 6 Player 6 ($3.47)
      Seat: 7 Player 7 ($1.86) Dealer
      Seat: 9 Player 9 ($1.47) Small Blind
      Seat: 10 Hero ($2) Big Blind
      Dealt to Hero
      :5s: :5h:

      Preflop (Pot:0.03)
      Player 1 FOLD
      Player 2 FOLD
      Player 3 CALL $0.02
      Player 4 FOLD
      Player 5 RAISE $0.08
      Player 6 CALL $0.08
      Player 7 FOLD
      Player 9 FOLD
      Hero FOLD
      Player 3 FOLD

      Flop(Pot: $0.21)
      :7c: :9s: :7h:

      Player 5 ALL-IN
      Player 6 FOLD
      Showdown:
      Player 5 MUCKS

      Player 5 wins the pot: $0.34

      Player 5 has almost nothing left, but what about player 6? Of course player 6 has no initiative and will probably only play when he hits (possibly a higher set). Can you make the call even OOP?
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by variancekiller
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      if you also take into account the set over set times, which are indeed rare, but happen and they are costly.

      Cheers.
      I don't think you are correct with this part at all, set over set will happen indeed, but you have to know that it will happen an equal amount of times in your favor as it happens to the opponents favour. So you can count set over set out of this discussion!
      An open raiser can have JJ+, you cannot usually when you just call. Maybe you have JJ sometimes but you will 3bet QQ+. It doesn't account for 1.7% that's certain, however there is also flopping set vs flush and vs straight, which again the open raiser has more of in his range in general. What actually matters is flopping a set and losing since the open raiser will usually have more sets, straights and flushes in his range than us. Again, it doesn't go to 1.7% of the time but you will usually lose all your stack in that situation because of inexperience and thought of 'set = nuts' so it is very costly.

      If when calling to set mine you don't account for when your set is not good and costs you all your stack you will lose quite a lot of money..