FR25 ZOOM discussion

    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      hello! :f_biggrin:

      i'm not really sure about what i'm doing here ?( i guess it's something like NL25 is the first "serious" limit and i'm probably going to hang in there for a while, also probably going to have to work on my game a lot.
      so let's move on:


      bankroll management - how many BI would you recommend? depends on me and discipline to move down? :f_biggrin: i currently have 24

      stacking off QQ/AK preflop - in general i guess i should be doing it, but why? to increase my 4bet+ range? equity+fold equity? or do they actually show up with worse?
      i ask because i actually got away with stacking off mostly only KK+ in zoom FR10 and no one seemed to care. i assume NL25 players in general are going to be more competent

      3betting light - good playability hands (something like 65s+, random Axs) from late positions vs people who can fold? do we do it vs average utg?

      4bet bluffing - which hands and where to do it? "it depends", but on what? ie i suppose i should 4bet Ax trash more often in spots like BUvBB when BB cares

      check/raise flop - what does that usually mean? :f_biggrin: i know "it depends" but i'd like some thoughts


      feel free to answer none, some or all of the questions :f_eek:
      also if someone (i'd prefer NL10+) wants to make or invite me to some random study group i may be interested :f_biggrin:
  • 7 replies
    • Jehryn
      Jehryn
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.04.2008 Posts: 678
      Hiya,

      BRM
      25BI is ok for NL25 but I would suggest putting a line at 20BI and move back down to NL10 until you reach 25BI for NL25 again.


      Stacking
      You REALLY don't have to worry about your image or perceived stats at NL25 and certainly not at Zoom.
      Now concerning QQ/AK, a lot depends on your position, stack size and villain.
      If a rock raises UTG FR and 4bets you, fold everthing except KK+.
      If ur in a blind battle against the SB and he's pretty agressive, shove assuming you have less then 100B.
      If ur stack is more than 150bb+ you don't want to push with QQ/AK aside against established retards (with notes & stats).
      if... etc..etc..

      3betting light

      Against depends on position & villain. if MP3 raises then sure you should 3bet light with A8s and fold if he 4bets. If UTG+1 raises, then obv fold A8s.
      wether the villain is a rock/LAG/station, that changes everything so stats are kinda necessary.

      4bet bluffing

      Again depends on position, villain, stack. I generally wouldn't 4bet bluff outside of LP/BB situations, but again it depends.



      In general NL25 isn't that much different from NL10, you will just have somewhat less weaktight & whale players and some more regs.
    • peche025
      peche025
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      24 BI's is fine, take a shot and say if you lose 6 buy in's move back to NL10 regain you confidence and move back up.

      Stacking off pre, it depends on everything, the opponent, position and if your calling a ship or pushing. I think that 3b/5b QQ from the blinds vs agro players is fine, when they call your all in you won't be in the best shape, but you pick up a lot of dead money when they 4b/f. UTG positions I think only getting in KK+ is fine, getting in AK and QQ is just burning money regs always have KK+. If your the button and someone 3bets you from the blinds think about your options, calling QQ is ok, against some players it's better than 4b and calling a push.

      3b light suited A's suited connectors are all good. IP blockers are good, oop you want hands that have good equity post flop. So oop it's worse 3b ATs how do you play on Axx f.e. or even on Txx but ip is fine. Look at fold3b % in your HUD, some people fold 90%, we want to exploit them, some fold 40% so we can value 3b 99+ ip no problem, as they call oop so wide.

      4b bluffing, if your using a HUD look at 3b%, resteal%, 4b% fold to 4b%. Someone with 3% 3b we don't need to 4b light as they are so tight, someone who's 10% 3b we need to 4b light so were the ones not getting exploited.
    • janalissako
      janalissako
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2011 Posts: 224
      one thing about going all the way with queens preflop. its very profitable more often than a lot of players think on nl 25 =) ( if the stack size are 100bb)
      here a example :
      hero is in middle positon ( 100bb) and raises 3 bb villian have the button(100bb) and 3 bet to 9 bb you 4 bet to lets say 25 bb and he shoves all in .
      so u have to call 75 bb to win 203 bb. so u only need about 37% vs his range to make a call profitable. :P what u think is a range from villian here if u dont know him. (so u play the first time vs him only thing u know is that he is a 25nl player)?
      if his range is qq+, ak u got 40,17%, so this call is already profitable!!!!! :s_o: but dont forget on nl25 are some fishes and some very agressive players and some players on tilt. all these players will have here wider range.

      vs aq+,jj+ u have 52% which is huge. if u got no read u have to call here. if u fold u lost 25bb in this hand and got no informations if u call its only a fault if his range here is really kk+ then u lose 38,46bb per call. if his range is aq+,jj+ u get 30,56 bb per call and that will be very often. even if its a tight regular his range is probably qq+,ak and u win 7bb per call!!!!! :s_cool:
      and another thing which i have to admitt probably happen 1 out of 10 000 times at nl25 , a regular know that u fold queens in these spots he might try to exploide that leak which would be a big disadvantage vs that player.
      last thing if u got a read and know he only have aa.kk there u should fold of course, but doesnt occure often .
      if someone think some of my thinkingprocess is wrong here tell me :)
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      Hey,

      I dont really like to answer to the other question. Just one! ABout BR! Also moved up with your BI but I didnt like because I it hurt my BR a lot whenI would lose 2-3 stacks. I like for example have like 40BI so I dont have to worry if I run a 3 street bluff or 5bet/ bluff shove. For me it give me more security and certaunly helped me more to play my A-game. I guess in your case it is dependent how do you feel but my advice would be stop playing zoom at least as a learner. Later you gonna comeback if you want. IMO Zoom deviates from better understanding the game(too much fit or fold). But again it is your choice.
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      thanks guys! much appreciated :f_biggrin:

      also i've noticed a tendency for lower raise sizes, ie opens are mostly between minraise-3bb, even from UTG.
      what are the advantages of minraising? i figure it's some kind of exploitative adaptation to all the fast folding, also makes it very easy to call/fold vs 3bets

      Originally posted by Sikac
      I guess in your case it is dependent how do you feel but my advice would be stop playing zoom at least as a learner. Later you gonna comeback if you want. IMO Zoom deviates from better understanding the game(too much fit or fold). But again it is your choice.
      i see that quite a lot of people have this attitude towards zoom.
      i think of this whole "too much fitfolding/setmining/whatever" thing as a different dynamic which needs some different adjustments, but can also be exploited (ie you 3bet more/2barrel more/float more/betfold more/whatever). it's still poker after all, isn't it?

      the thing that i think i may be missing on is "table dynamics". it's not very often that you get to 3bet the same guy 3 times in a row, and he may not even notice :f_biggrin:

      Originally posted by janalissako
      what u think is a range from villian here if u dont know him. (so u play the first time vs him only thing u know is that he is a 25nl player)?
      as for zoom i dunno, KK+? QQ+, AK? that's why i asked :f_biggrin:
      these seemed to be the more typical NL10 ranges (not even a lot of people with 5%+ 3bet, mind you) so i wasn't too happy about stacking off with QQ, AK. most often i'd just call and "keep their ranges wide"

      Originally posted by janalissako
      vs aq+,jj+ u have 52% which is huge. if u got no read u have to call here.
      without reads i'd be way more inclined to think that he has KK+ than AQ+, JJ. that's why i asked if things are a lot different in NL25 :f_biggrin:
    • peche025
      peche025
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.12.2008 Posts: 1,387
      I use 4bb utg, 3bb MP, 2.5bb CO and then btn 2.5bb or 2bb.

      The idea utg I have a tight range and I'm out of position so I raise large. CO BTN we have position, basically we want to own these pots, raising smaller makes our steals cheaper and allows to play more 3b pots ip. I min raise any two cards on the button against people who's fold BB to steal is really high.

      NL25 won't be that different to NL10 just the regs will be more agro, it's the same for every level you move up.
    • variancekiller
      variancekiller
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2010 Posts: 896
      Originally posted by janalissako
      here a example :
      hero is in middle positon ( 100bb) and raises 3 bb villian have the button(100bb) and 3 bet to 9 bb you 4 bet to lets say 25 bb and he shoves all in .
      so u have to call 75 bb to win 203 bb.
      You forget to take out the 8bb ($2) rake in the total pot!