On bet sizing

    • Gnillperker
      Gnillperker
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2012 Posts: 64
      Hey community! It's a little long, needed to clear some thoughts though, please bear with me!

      Lately I've been losing hands I feel I shouldn't lose, partly because I've been trying to slowplay some of my hands. Its been working against me though, I've been trying to conceal my top hands. Especially hands like AA, KK and AKo ect. However, I can't seem to figure out what is the more profitable play: to get many to join the pot, or to win it as soon as possible?

      When i slowplay AA for example, by calling instead of raising, I keep losing to
      weaker hands or finding myself in situations I don't want to be in.

      Why do we bet? - or put differently, how to make the most out of strong hands?

      I find more money gets in the pot if I call than if I raise. And if someone raises before me preflop, it might be better to call to make entering the pot more attractive to others. It's a two-edged sword though.

      AKo is hard to play slow though, it's not even close to as good as I though that hand might be. You only hit around 25% of the time.. and I often have to fold when they call my cbet with ease.. its a tough laydown!

      But with Kings, Queens, Aces (and maybe Jacks) I don't want the others to fold preflop. How do I balance this so I don't lose to weaker hands on the flop? Should I raise (min-raise maybe?)/ 3 bet?

      I guess my thoughts boil down these questions:

      - How do I make the most out of the strongest pairs without losing to weaker hands on flop/turn?
      - When should I just secure the pot?
      - When should I slowplay my hands preflop?

      ... or something like that

      tips and constructive criticism will be appreciated!

      PS:
      What to do when you have top pair As (or less)? on rainbow flop?
      Isn't it better to "c-bet" than to play him out of the hand?
  • 5 replies
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,860
      while i read the entire thing i'll confess to not paying a huge amount of attention.

      anyway as you probably have figured out - guess what - big pairs are vulnerable, and the most players in the pot the more people have a chance to own you.
      and in single raised pots (specially if they're multiway) you're going to have a tough time getting people to overplay one pair, so no surprise you're often behind when the money goes in :f_biggrin:

      reeeeally most often the most +EV way to play KK+ will be to just bet/raise/shove preflop. QQ, JJ, AK are more situational.
    • Spungeh
      Spungeh
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.06.2011 Posts: 1,212
      - How do I make the most out of the strongest pairs without losing to weaker hands on flop/turn?
      - When should I just secure the pot?
      - When should I slowplay my hands preflop?


      - Bet
      - When you get the most value
      - Never, your not phil hellmuth.
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,897
      Originally posted by Gnillperker
      Hey community! It's a little long, needed to clear some thoughts though, please bear with me!

      Lately I've been losing hands I feel I shouldn't lose, partly because I've been trying to slowplay some of my hands. Its been working against me though, I've been trying to conceal my top hands. Especially hands like AA, KK and AKo ect. However, I can't seem to figure out what is the more profitable play: to get many to join the pot, or to win it as soon as possible?

      When i slowplay AA for example, by calling instead of raising, I keep losing to
      weaker hands or finding myself in situations I don't want to be in.

      If you are trying to conceal hands by calling you are probably not raising enough and people think a raise from you = nuts. The easy fix: learn to play more hands, especially IP.


      Why do we bet? - or put differently, how to make the most out of strong hands?

      Value bet them a lot and fold when you know you are beat.

      I find more money gets in the pot if I call than if I raise. And if someone raises before me preflop, it might be better to call to make entering the pot more attractive to others. It's a two-edged sword though.

      It's not a two-edged sword, it's just bad for your raising range and it's the best way to lose with the strong preflop hands since you will always feel commited to the pot and pay off the other players.

      AKo is hard to play slow though, it's not even close to as good as I though that hand might be. You only hit around 25% of the time.. and I often have to fold when they call my cbet with ease.. its a tough laydown!

      But with Kings, Queens, Aces (and maybe Jacks) I don't want the others to fold preflop. How do I balance this so I don't lose to weaker hands on the flop? Should I raise (min-raise maybe?)/ 3 bet?

      I guess my thoughts boil down these questions:

      - How do I make the most out of the strongest pairs without losing to weaker hands on flop/turn?
      - When should I just secure the pot?
      - When should I slowplay my hands preflop?

      ... or something like that

      tips and constructive criticism will be appreciated!

      PS:
      What to do when you have top pair As (or less)? on rainbow flop?
      Isn't it better to "c-bet" than to play him out of the hand?
      The best advice I can give you is to join the NL Beginners Course here.

      Regards,
      Manu.
    • janalissako
      janalissako
      Bronze
      Joined: 31.08.2011 Posts: 224
      here three important tipps :
      1. never ever slowplay aces . Never. why ? cause u could get the chance to stack tt+or ak maybe even aq on low limits and this brings u often a whole stack . so if someone raise before the flop reraise him with aces and maybe he will 4 bet(rereraise) with tt+,ak and u can get all his money . another reason if u only call u invite other players to call as well u think this is a good thing cause there will be more money in the pot BUT vs 5 random hands u arent the favourite to win the pot any longer and that can cost u ur entire stack and other players with toppair wont give u that much action in a multiwaypot.
      2. if u want to play big hands slow some of the time do it with ak suited. this hand plays beatiful vs more players cause u have a good potential to flop turn or river nuthands which let u win big pots in multiwaypots . i dont tell u to always play aks slow but u can do it some of the time and it wil make ur calling range stronger. what does it mean? it means that opponents know that u are capable of slowplaying big hands and they may give u credits for ak if u only call preflop. this is an adavntage because they may play more passive vs u and they dont contibet too often. ( but this is only important on higher limits cause on nl2-5 ur opponents never think about ranges)
      3.never ever only limp or call with queens !!!! and most of the time reraise/raise with jacks too, cause they are strong hands preflop but if an ace or king is on the flop they are hard to play and doesnt look strong anymore and u dont wanna play with these hands vs a lot of opponents.
      hope this help u a little bit =)
    • Gnillperker
      Gnillperker
      Bronze
      Joined: 05.01.2012 Posts: 64
      Ok thanks for taking the time to read and give me great advice! I'm doing the beginner course now, just started learning about BSS as u probably can imagine :)

      Just one thing, what do you mean by IP? I'm not familiar with the term. Implied odds? In pot?

      Thanks

      EDIT: Oh, In position!