[NL2-NL10] min raised on flop and semi bluff shove turn

    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      only had 26 hands on him
      23/17 agg 71 and 5.00

      when he min raise me on flop im a bit mythed so if im not sure id rather take an aggro line as i do have pair and FD and would get it in

      the turns a blank so i shove reppin big ace to protect from FD, i know hes not calling worse hands but i want him to fold weak Aces

      what do you think of my line here?

      Poker Stars, $0.08/$0.16 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      MP: $10.89 (68.1 bb)
      Hero (CO): $17.70 (110.6 bb)
      BTN: $16 (100 bb)
      SB: $15.35 (95.9 bb)
      BB: $17.95 (112.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with J Q
      MP folds, Hero raises to $0.48, BTN calls $0.48, 2 folds

      Flop: ($1.20) J 2 A (2 players)
      Hero bets $0.80, BTN raises to $1.60, Hero raises to $4, BTN calls $2.40

      Turn: ($9.20) 9 (2 players)
      Hero bets $13.22,
  • 19 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello nefarious26,

      What's the reason to 3bet in first place there on the flop? If you get it in you will at the best just be coinflipping there. So rather just take the odds if he is giving you them.

      Best Regards.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      Hi Veriz

      i 3 bet the flop coz im beating all fds and in good shape, i feel he has weak aces and it sets up a better shoving spot on the turn and get good FE, so i feel if i just check and take the odds i will have to give up if i miss
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      Hi Veriz

      i 3 bet the flop coz im beating all fds and in good shape, i feel he has weak aces and it sets up a better shoving spot on the turn and get good FE, so i feel if i just check and take the odds i will have to give up if i miss
      What about K high FD? But overall I see your thoughts and if you really assume that the guy is capable of folding Ax hands here then why not. But at the best we get a equity something similar:

      Board: J:club: 2:heart: A:heart:
             Equity     Win     Tie
      UTG    56.13%  56.05%   0.08% { JJ, 22, ATs+, A2s, KhTh, Kh9h, ATo+, A2o }
      UTG+1  43.87%  43.79%   0.08% { QhJh }

      and which actually isn't going to be the best one for us. Which means calling might be even better here. We would need ~48% equity or assuming that his raising range is very wide.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      yeah i see what your saying but we can also include some more suited conectors into his range 78h 9 10 h etc and even some gappers as there aint manys jacks left, i have just over 50% vs his range imo, he is not going to shove flop with weak aces which i have a good FE with my turn shove

      what do you think?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      yeah i see what your saying but we can also include some more suited conectors into his range 78h 9 10 h etc and even some gappers as there aint manys jacks left, i have just over 50% vs his range imo, he is not going to shove flop with weak aces which i have a good FE with my turn shove

      what do you think?
      Why would he want to go broke vs you with those hands?
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      well he shouldnt want to go broke with them hands but i give him the option to make that mistake, so my raise is for value vs his worse FDs that he calls with and ace rags that he folds on the turn

      you put raggy aces in his range so i can ask you the same question? =)

      i do agree that if we get it in on the flop i should be getting the worse of it but i feel there are more hands in his range that he wont want to get in so my plan to inflate the pot so i can shove the turn is ok?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      well he shouldnt want to go broke with them hands but i give him the option to make that mistake, so my raise is for value vs his worse FDs that he calls with and ace rags that he folds on the turn

      Don't see him ever going broke there with those hands so I don't really get the option idea, what do you mean by that?

      you put raggy aces in his range so i can ask you the same question?

      Ask same question about? Why would he raise? To protect his hand?

      i do agree that if we get it in on the flop i should be getting the worse of it but i feel there are more hands in his range that he wont want to get in so my plan to inflate the pot so i can shove the turn is ok?

      That should be the plan if you are 3betting the flop, can't really Check/Fold the turn. He isn't going to fold his Ace on the flop which raised, especially for the given odds. Which means we should raise it bigger in first place to gain fold equity and at the same time make it ready to shove the turn and not over-shove it.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      1: agree it would be bad for him to go broke with that part of his range, but i give him the room to make a bad play, if i call thats the end of the action, if i raise he has 3 options, call, fold or raise

      2: your saying he wont raise here with 78hh etc but why would he raise here with Ax? its very weak and for that price im only folding air so hes not protecting much, im not sure what his raise means but it looks very weak to me, he may be looking for a cheap turn card or he is turning Ax or a slowplayed kk kind of hand into a bluff and seeing were he is,

      3: i dont want him to fold anything on the flop, i 3bet to $4 to give him enough room were he can think he has FE if he shoves and to keep ax and drawing hands in, its not a big over shove on the turn but yeah if your being picky i could of 3bet to $5.25
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      2: your saying he wont raise here with 78hh etc but why would he raise here with Ax? its very weak and for that price im only folding air so hes not protecting much, im not sure what his raise means but it looks very weak to me, he may be looking for a cheap turn card or he is turning Ax or a slowplayed kk kind of hand into a bluff and seeing were he is,
      I said mainly that he isn't going broke with 78 not that he isn't capable of raising them. And obviously it doesn't make sense at all that he doesn't have Ax hands in his range which min-raise like that, he definitely has. Just cause he min-raises it it doesn't mean always that he isn't having Ax here or even traps, you don't know him, so you can't assume anything either until you know him better.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      yeah ok i missread what you said,

      so yeah as i said ihave ax 78s and all the other stuff in his range thats why i 3bet coz he wont want to get it in with them hands so iv built the pot were i can shove the turn and take it down most of the time,

      so when i shove he folds the stuff i have beat and he folds his weak made hands that beat me and he calls with his monsters(22 jj aj which i doubt he minraises to given me a good price to hit) .
      and i win a pot thats a bit bigger coz i 3bet that i prolly would of lost if i just called on the flop and dont forget i could of hit my draw and go broke to the kx hands in his range by just calling
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      yeah ok i missread what you said,

      so yeah as i said ihave ax 78s and all the other stuff in his range thats why i 3bet coz he wont want to get it in with them hands so iv built the pot were i can shove the turn and take it down most of the time,

      so when i shove he folds the stuff i have beat and he folds his weak made hands that beat me and he calls with his monsters(22 jj aj which i doubt he minraises to given me a good price to hit) .
      and i win a pot thats a bit bigger coz i 3bet that i prolly would of lost if i just called on the flop and dont forget i could of hit my draw and go broke to the kx hands in his range by just calling
      It's not gonna happen very often that he calls the flop, especially if he has a strong hand he is never-ever going to give you a free card on such a drawy board. So you can't really hope for "I can hit a draw when he calls". Nor you of course in this case will never be sure if you can't even be against the nutFD itself. We don't know the opponent and he might even Call with a lot of K:hX hands.

      You are talking about those smaller SCs but why not to keep them in the pot? With calling you are ahead vs them anyways and we might just see a Check behind on the turn which would most likely happen when he picks such a line. With your small raise I don't really see what kind of hands he is going to fold.

      If I'd go for fold equity on the flop and try to get Ax hands to fold then I'd also 3bet it bigger which I mentioned earlier + we would be able to shove turns in case he calls even us. Which of course isn't very wrong move cause with just weak Ax we still have decent equity.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      Ok so the best play here is call the flop minraise and check fold the turn to a decent size bet? or check it down and he shows me ax or CBF if a heart hits the river?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      Ok so the best play here is call the flop minraise and check fold the turn to a decent size bet? or check it down and he shows me ax or CBF if a heart hits the river?
      Not saying that but that mainly depends what's our plan, as I pointed out that rather 3bet bigger to get the fold equity vs Ax hands or whatsoever hands. Or either if we want to keep weaker draws in the play then just Call and keep his range wide.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      yeah but by me 3 betting smaller i keep his weaker draws in and also keep his ax in and i get max FE on the turn and win bigger pot and that is my plan
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      yeah but by me 3 betting smaller i keep his weaker draws in and also keep his ax in and i get max FE on the turn and win bigger pot and that is my plan
      Why would you want to keep Ax in the pot? And very small part of his range is going to be weaker FD.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      yeah but by me 3 betting smaller i keep his weaker draws in and also keep his ax in and i get max FE on the turn and win bigger pot and that is my plan
      Why would you want to keep Ax in the pot? And very small part of his range is going to be weaker FD.
      why would i want to 3bet bigger on the flop to fold out ax when i can 3bet smaller keep ax in and then get him to fold ax on the turn when he has put more money in?

      i just wanted to win a bigger pot
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      Originally posted by veriz
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      yeah but by me 3 betting smaller i keep his weaker draws in and also keep his ax in and i get max FE on the turn and win bigger pot and that is my plan
      Why would you want to keep Ax in the pot? And very small part of his range is going to be weaker FD.
      why would i want to 3bet bigger on the flop to fold out ax when i can 3bet smaller keep ax in and then get him to fold ax on the turn when he has put more money in?

      i just wanted to win a bigger pot
      I am ending here this argument cause there is nothing to add into my thoughts anymore and seems I can't convince you anyways. Just do whatever you feeling being the best.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      ok thanks for your imput

      im obviously missing the point here but its been very constructive

      Thanks :f_thumbsup:
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by nefarious26
      ok thanks for your imput

      im obviously missing the point here but its been very constructive

      Thanks :f_thumbsup:
      You are welcome. :)