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  • 16 replies
    • UPAY4DINNER
      UPAY4DINNER
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.09.2009 Posts: 21,921
      [SPOILER]
      Originally posted by ragney
      I have read and accepted the staking rules. By posting in this thread, every member acknowledges the same.
      ragney feedback

      ---[TOTAL ACTION SOLD: 30/100]---

      Selling up to 70% micro MTTs action for this weekend to reduce some variance though micro MTTs are soft as hell. I'm mainly a SH player who moved to HU cash and HUSNG for the past few months. Reason I want to play these MTT is because I think their pretty soft and against most villains I should have postflop edge due my experience in sh and hu games. This is also a small preparation to the upcoming Micro Millions. I will have near full free time to poker. Planning to do this weekly if it runs good.

      My first 1k games ever since I started HUSNG's a month ago $7 and $15s.
      For my SH/HU cash game, check my blog on my signature to get a general idea about the results/playstyle.[/SPOILER]

      =



      The 34 MTTs that I plan to play
      Saturday
      Time Tournament (gtd prize) Buyin Type
      13,30 Hot 8k 4,4 Turbo
      14,00 Sat Micro 25k 3,3
      15,00 Big 20k 5,5
      15,00 5k 1,35 Turbo
      15,45 7,5k 5,4 Turbo
      17,00 Big 25k 8,8
      17,30 5k 2,2 Turbo
      18,15 7,5k 2,7 Turbo
      18,30 Hot 25k 11 Turbo
      18,45 10k 5,4 Turbo
      19,45 7k 1,35 Turbo
      19,45 10k 2,2 Turbo
      20,00 Big 60k 11
      20,45 8k 4,4 Turbo
      21,00 7,5k 2,7 Turbo
      21,00 10k 5,5 Turbo
      21,15 10k 5,4 Turbo

      Sunday
      Time Tournament (gtd prize) Buyin Type
      13,30 Hot 50k 4,4 Turbo
      15,00 Big 40k 5,5
      15,00 5k 1,35 Turbo
      15,45 7,5k 5,4 Turbo
      17,00 Big 50k 8,8
      17,30 5k 2,2 Turbo
      18,15 7,5k 2,7 Turbo
      18,45 10k 5,4 Turbo
      18,30 Hot 25k 11 Turbo
      19,30 Sunday Storm 300k 11
      19,45 7k 1,35 Turbo
      19,45 10k 2,2 Turbo
      20,00 Big 120k 11
      20,45 8k 4,4 Turbo
      21,00 7,5k 2,7 Turbo
      21,00 10k 5,5 Turbo
      21,15 10k 5,4 Turbo

      Avg. buyin per MTT: $5,09


      Total: $172,90 x 1.157 (markup) = $200

      Conditions for staking
      - Profit (only profits, no rakeback) will be 40/60 in your favour based on a fullstake on me
      - If I decide not to play a MTT for whatever reason you get fully refunded with markup
      - For this edition I'm playing regardless of how many % gets sold

      10% = $20
      15% = $30
      20% = $40

      Staking list
      ragney 30%


      You can ship the chips to ExcelionB (Netherlands) on stars. Post/pm from which account you shipped from and if you need my skype or any other questions/suggestions, just ask :)
      Quoted for reference

      WARNING: BY STAKING THIS MEMBER YOU ARE RISKING A POTENTIAL LOSS BECAUSE OF FRAUD OR PLAYBAD/RUNBAD. AGREEING TO THIS STAKE IS YOUR SOLE RESPONSIBILITY. POKERSTRATEGY.COM TAKES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR STAKING DEALS BETWEEN MEMBERS. FURTHERMORE POKERSTRATEGY.COM IS NOT EXPECTED TO TAKE PART IN VERIFYING ANY PLAYER NOR GUARANTEEING AGAINST ANY LOSS

      Good luck :)
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Removed 4 MTTs due most likely dinner time and also lowered the markup to make the total stake $175.
    • sridneel
      sridneel
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.10.2011 Posts: 340
      how much % of the action are u selling?
    • jaggedlink
      jaggedlink
      Bronze
      Joined: 13.11.2009 Posts: 442
      Ok, I'm in once again. Reserving for 20%.

      Will ship and pm details this evening(EST).

      Crush like the HULK
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Originally posted by sridneel
      how much % of the action are u selling?
      I wrote it on the first sentence. Up to 70% I'm selling.

      @jaggedlink: yeah I must fucking ship few MTTs this year goddamnit. Just lost my chipleader status during ITM vs 3 flips tonight on a 10k gtd mtt. JokerStars... :f_frown: :f_frown: :f_frown:
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      I'm very sry if I'm wrong, but are u really taking a mark-up on ur schedule and ur (additionally!!!) cutting eventual winnings??

      @all stakers fyi:
      If u cut winnings u basically put a mark-up on the schedule (which is slightly reduced if the stakee offers stakeback = only winnings get cut).
      e.g. 80/20 staker/stakee equals about a 1,25 mark-up as u pay for the whole schedule but u only get 80%.

      Edit: I just looked u up on sharkscope and u rlly don't have any samplesize on mtts.
      Usually for mark-up deals u would cut the expected ROI (which needs a large sample to have at least a vague approximation of the true ROI) in halfs between the staker and the stakee, e.g. hero has 40% roi on the tournaments of a schedule he wants to sell, the mark-up would be 1,2 = u pay 20% more for the action u r buying.
      More or less the same goes for deals with x/y staker/stakee cuts only then as the stakee usually offers stakeback u don't necessarily need to cut the roi in halfs and can be a lil more generous from the staker's perspective.

      Edit2: A fair deal imo would be 80/20+stakeback if the stakers r ambitious or know ur game very well or a mark-up deal of 1,05-1,10 on the action u plan to sell.
      But taking both mark-up and planning to cut winnings is just .... i just hope u didn't know what ur were doing...

      Again - if I didn't terribly misread the OP (as I can hardly believe it :( ) - I'm sorry, but I strongly advise OP and all possible stakers (as there appear to be some) to get more into the very basics of staking...
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Originally posted by Kamikaze001
      I'm very sry if I'm wrong, but are u really taking a mark-up on ur schedule and ur (additionally!!!) cutting eventual winnings??

      @all stakers fyi:
      If u cut winnings u basically put a mark-up on the schedule (which is slightly reduced if the stakee offers stakeback = only winnings get cut).
      e.g. 80/20 staker/stakee equals about a 1,25 mark-up as u pay for the whole schedule but u only get 80%.

      Again - if I didn't terribly misread the OP (as I can hardly believe it :( ) - I'm sorry, but I strongly advise OP and all possible stakers (as there appear to be some) to get more into the very basics of staking...
      If there is anything not clear, please and see what solutions there is possible.

      Your explanations aren't good but I try to add some stuffs that I understand from your text...

      The markup was to make the digits easier. I shoulda made it to $170 instead. The difference is than $4.20 so the stakers are paying 0.42cents extra per 10%. This is a minor issue IMO and if there are alot of users say that this is a huge factor for staking I can remove it.

      Your second line I don't understand, the markup is so small that it doesn't play any (major) role IMO. Would be very nice if you can explain it in detail.

      About how the way the profit is being divided...
      - Since I buy 30% of my own action, I will also pay 30% of the loss if the stake ends in a non-profit
      - No rakeback
      - Bounties counts as normal profit

      Any more questions or anything I've done wrong please ask/post/suggest!


      Edit2: A fair deal imo would be 80/20+stakeback if the stakers r ambitious or know ur game very well or a mark-up deal of 1,05-1,10 on the action u plan to sell.
      But taking both mark-up and planning to cut winnings is just .... i just hope u didn't know what ur were doing...
      Please explain me in detail what does 80/20+ mean. I'm not common with those staking terms/calculations nor I'm expert in staking. If it makes the staking more fair/balance I'll be gladly to change it.
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      Originally posted by ragney
      Originally posted by Kamikaze001
      I'm very sry if I'm wrong, but are u really taking a mark-up on ur schedule and ur (additionally!!!) cutting eventual winnings??

      @all stakers fyi:
      If u cut winnings u basically put a mark-up on the schedule (which is slightly reduced if the stakee offers stakeback = only winnings get cut).
      e.g. 80/20 staker/stakee equals about a 1,25 mark-up as u pay for the whole schedule but u only get 80%.

      Again - if I didn't terribly misread the OP (as I can hardly believe it :( ) - I'm sorry, but I strongly advise OP and all possible stakers (as there appear to be some) to get more into the very basics of staking...
      If there is anything not clear, please and see what solutions there is possible.

      Your explanations aren't good but I try to add some stuffs that I understand from your text...

      The markup was to make the digits easier. I shoulda made it to $170 instead. The difference is than $4.20 so the stakers are paying 0.42cents extra per 10%. This is a minor issue IMO and if there are alot of users say that this is a huge factor for staking I can remove it.

      Your second line I don't understand, the markup is so small that it doesn't play any (major) role IMO. Would be very nice if you can explain it in detail.

      About how the way the profit is being divided...
      - Since I buy 30% of my own action, I will also pay 30% of the loss if the stake ends in a non-profit
      - No rakeback
      - Bounties counts as normal profit

      Any more questions or anything I've done wrong please ask/post/suggest!


      Edit2: A fair deal imo would be 80/20+stakeback if the stakers r ambitious or know ur game very well or a mark-up deal of 1,05-1,10 on the action u plan to sell.
      But taking both mark-up and planning to cut winnings is just .... i just hope u didn't know what ur were doing...
      Please explain me in detail what does 80/20+ mean. I'm not common with those staking or nor I'm expert in staking. If it makes the staking more fair/balance I'll be gladly to change it.
      I already edited a few points to my first point, so maybe that made it clearer.

      But to ur points :)

      First the mark-up:
      Yes, I realize it's small. But staking is about investing money in +ev players/deals. Any extra fee u put on the staker is in the first place -ev for the staker.
      And just believe me, it is very unusual to take mark-up and cut the winnings. U do one or another. I think I explained it in the edits. If unclear, feel free to ask.

      From a stakers perspective:
      U want a fullstake (yes, u do buy 30% urself still any 10% buyer sees u as another staker, so it doesn't make any difference for him).
      When u cut potential winnings 60/40 Staker/Stakee the staker pays for 100% of the action (yes, u included, but from staker's perspective it doesn't matter) but the staker only gets 60% of the EV (expected value), which makes a diff. factor of 1,67.
      So for a deal like that u would want ur stakee to have an expected roi of about at least 80%, better a 100%, optimally 135%. And with these numbers we get in very unreal areas.

      80/20+stakeback
      = winnings are payed out 80% to stakers, 20% to stakee after the original buy-ins are returned to the stakers = stakeback
      As I had written in my first post, stakers like that basically pay 25% up top.
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      About how the way the profit is being divided... - Since I buy 30% of my own action, I will also pay 30% of the loss if the stake ends in a non-profit - No rakeback - Bounties counts as normal profit


      - if u take or "buy" action of urself ofc u'll take some losses too
      - no rakeback? i think for the volume of rake in a micro mtt staking like that u can forget about rakeback either way from staker's/stakee's perspective
      - bounties count as profit - yes, that's normal if u play ko mtts.
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Thanks alot I understand now, it does make things much "fair". I'll make a new topic with the better deals for the stakers. It will be 20/80!

      New topic >> JokerStars weekend Micro MTTs #1 (odds fixed, 20/80 in your favour)
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      Originally posted by ragney
      Thanks alot I understand now, it does make things much "fair". I agree the variance on MTT is higher, I'll make a new topic with the better deals for the stakers. It will be 20/80!
      :f_thumbsup:
      sry if i came across a little strong^^
      just wanted to see what kind of action goes in the english forum and was a little bit "amazed" by ur offer :D

      the problem about mtt stakings like that for only 30 mtts is generally that the variance f***s very good players over samplesizes of several thousand games, so 30 games is unfortunately not much.
      that being said it also implies that the stakeback (only winnings get cut) is not worth much as mtt players more often end up out of the money than itm and usually the buy-ins just get lost -> which again implies that cut&stakeback deals are just a different formula for mark-up deals.
      so from the staker's perspective u need to have a very fair cut to make this still a profitable investment and as I've pointed out 60/40 is sort of tough to make a profit from.

      GL with ur staking! ship it^^
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Thanks for pointing out sir. It does makes sense ofc. And yeah variance is the reason why I want to stake them out.

      What is more "fair" nowadays on soft mtt fields? 25/75 or 20/80? 30/70 sounds too harsh IMO. Im not too sure.
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      Originally posted by ragney
      Thanks for pointing out sir. It does makes sense ofc. And yeah variance is the reason why I want to stake them out.

      What is more "fair" nowadays on soft mtt fields? 25/75 or 20/80? 30/70 sounds too harsh IMO. Im not too sure.
      In the German staking forum stakeback-deals for 30-50 mtts usually go for 80/20 when people r less known or have less optimal results.
      Still 80/20 implies the 1,25 mu.
      I think for a talented player with an expected roi of 30-50% it is very fair.

      When people r well know and have decent results with rois of 50% and more, deals might go for 75/25 or even a little better.

      Ofc when people offer to play e.g. 100+ mtts they might get better cuts.
    • Kamikaze001
      Kamikaze001
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.11.2007 Posts: 5,832
      Btw I've alway written
      20% roi -> 1,1 mu
      80/20 -> ~ 1,25mu -> requires ideally 50% roi

      the reasoning behind that is that staker and stakee cut expected roi in halfs which i believe is standard in most staking deals.
      still that's no rule and if the staker is very confident with his stakee he might also pay e.g. 1,4 mu for an expected roi of 50%.
    • ragney
      ragney
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.08.2010 Posts: 2,417
      Aight thanks. Made it 20/80. Doesn't really bother me if it doesnt get sold. There is so much money in micro/low stakes MTT atm which I am giving shots. I don't have a sample of my MTT winrate.

      Thanks again!
    • thazar
      thazar
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.09.2009 Posts: 6,560
      So there is a new thread for this stake request here:

      JokerStars weekend Micro MTTs #1 (stakeback fixed, 20/80 in your favour)