[NL20-NL50] Pocket Queens in 3-Bet pots again

    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      Poker Stars, $0.08/$0.16 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

      CO: $8.28 (51.7 bb)
      BTN: $16.16 (101 bb) 21/19/8.0/12.5/50/52 Fold to 3-Bet 67%(3)
      SB: $10.22 (63.9 bb)
      Hero (BB): $21.24 (132.8 bb) 18/14/1.2/3.4/43/138
      UTG: $16.64 (104 bb)
      MP: $16.81 (105.1 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is BB with Q Q
      3 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, SB folds, Hero raises to $1.60, BTN calls $1.25

      Flop: ($3.28) J 4 A (2 players)
      Hero bets $2.08, BTN calls $2.08

      OOP again, I have a backdoor draw so I C-bet.

      Turn: ($7.44) 2 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN checks

      Is it a mistake to give up here or should I bet again? I can't make Ax hands fold that call 3-Bets.

      River: ($7.44) 5 (2 players)
      Hero checks, BTN bets $3.79, Hero folds

      His check on the turn was just sick, he could have checked with a flush draw getting a free card or he could have played an Ax hand for pot control and bluff induce.

      Results:
      $7.44 pot ($0.33 rake)
      Final Board: J 4 A 2 5
      BTN mucked and won $7.11 ($3.43 net)
      Hero mucked Q Q and lost (-$3.68 net)
  • 11 replies
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      I like the turncheck because Ax won't fold and Jx will check behind. He can't have many draws.

      River I'd also just fold since Jx will check behind and he can't have many FD's. He can easily check behind some aces on the turn.
    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,807
      What s the plan on the turn? X/C or X/F? I would still Cbet the T because I dont think we can turn our hand into a bluffcatcher and call the T&R. If we assumed him capable of calling with worse then our Cbet is for value so what has changed OTT. I personally if I X T I m X/F unless I have some other reads or dynamics.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Plan is obv ch/f. ch/c would be -----ev
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Hand is standard/WP by both of you imo
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello maheepsangari,

      Why is the hand standard? He is an aggressive player and why should be Check/Fold the turn while might even give up the best hand? Why would we Check/Call the turn & then Check/Fold the river while the guy once again could have some weaker hands in his range which are just turned into bluff.

      So I don't really agree with it, if I am going for a CB on the flop then I'd also Bet the turn so I wouldn't turn my hand into bluff-catcher. People just being too much result oriented here.

      Vs you the river is super easy to play cause you would very often Bet your Ax hand yourself and Check any weaker hand which means we don't even need much fold equity vs on the river.

      Best Regards.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Originally posted by veriz
      why should be Check/Fold the turn while might even give up the best hand?
      A few reason why we don't have the best hand all that often after checking and he bets:
      1) This flop is pretty dangerous and hits our range very good so he will not float here, if he is that aggro he will most likely bluffraise than float.
      2) If we check the turn he's probably going to check with his Jx.

      We are just behind vs his range where he calls the flop with... Even if he has a FD he can easily bluff us on the river.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      1) This flop is pretty dangerous and hits our range very good so he will not float here, if he is that aggro he will most likely bluffraise than float.

      Why would he bluff-raise such a board? What is he representing? And nor it doesn't even make sense to bluff-raise cause most likely with strong made hand he wouldn't do that. Why wouldn't he float with Jx if he called preflop? Do you know him? Do you know his fold to CB?

      2) If we check the turn he's probably going to check with his Jx.

      Probably? You can't be sure on that cause he is such an aggressive player, at least I would play my Jx most likely the same way and would see tons of folds from Hero here.

      We are just behind vs his range where he calls the flop with... Even if he has a FD he can easily bluff us on the river.

      Why would we be behind? He is pretty aggressive so his range is towards very wide range as well, especially if Hero had an aggressive image, plus it's BTNvsBlind.
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Why I'm always wrong grrr :P . So hard to accept still...

      I'll ask it this way:
      Do you think he folds hands like KQ/QT? I expect he does and if I think he wouldn't I'm going to bet flop bet turn.

      Now this his probably his range (in my opinion) if he calls our flopbet:
      nl.pokerstrategy.com
      Board: Jd4dAh
      Equity Winst Split
      MP2 39.63% 39.54% 0.09% { QdQs }
      MP3 60.37% 60.27% 0.09% { JJ, AQs-ATs, KJs, QJs, JTs, KdQd, KdTd, QdTd, Td9d, AhKd, AsKd, AsKh, AcKd, AhJd, AsJd, AsJh, AcJd, AcJh }

      I gave him just a few combo's of AK cause he probably wants to go broke with them preflop.
      I gave him not all of the AJ combo's cause he maybe raises them on the flop.

      So vs this range we are behind. If we bet the turn it is defenitely as a bluff. As I now see it might actually be a good bluff if we think he is always folding Jx haha :D . So that's your plan I suppose?
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by Farmarchist
      Why I'm always wrong grrr :P . So hard to accept still...

      I'll ask it this way:
      Do you think he folds hands like KQ/QT? I expect he does and if I think he wouldn't I'm going to bet flop bet turn.

      Now this his probably his range (in my opinion) if he calls our flopbet:
      nl.pokerstrategy.com
      Board: Jd4dAh
      Equity Winst Split
      MP2 39.63% 39.54% 0.09% { QdQs }
      MP3 60.37% 60.27% 0.09% { JJ, AQs-ATs, KJs, QJs, JTs, KdQd, KdTd, QdTd, Td9d, AhKd, AsKd, AsKh, AcKd, AhJd, AsJd, AsJh, AcJd, AcJh }

      I gave him just a few combo's of AK cause he probably wants to go broke with them preflop.
      I gave him not all of the AJ combo's cause he maybe raises them on the flop.

      So vs this range we are behind. If we bet the turn it is defenitely as a bluff. As I now see it might actually be a good bluff if we think he is always folding Jx haha :D . So that's your plan I suppose?
      Making way too optimistic range here, I am pretty sure he may easily have a lot wide range assuming he does fold to CB only 50% of the times if it's the fold to CB stat (assume not 3bet pot). Nor he doesn't fold that often to 3bets which makes his range even wider.

      Also why would you even take a look at the equity here? What does it have to do with the equity? If equity is higher than %? You CB? And if not then you Check/Fold or what?

      But I am not going to repeated it again, you wont ever play profitable your hand by just CBetting it once and Check/Folding the turn. :f_biggrin: He just doesn't have only Ax hands in his floating range.

      And nope, I don't think he always folds his GS here. Perfect board to float vs such player as you are who Check/Folds the turn almost always. :P
    • Farmarchist
      Farmarchist
      Bronze
      Joined: 27.12.2010 Posts: 14,640
      Oki :P
    • maheepsangari
      maheepsangari
      Gold
      Joined: 08.06.2010 Posts: 2,163
      I did feel I was being exploited a lot because of not C-Betting turn in these cases. I didn't post his fold to C-Bet stat cause there was hardly any sample, 50%(2).