Calling A high on river

    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      So here is the situation, blinds are 100/200 and I have about 7,500 chips, I'd doubled up 5 hands back with AQ, flop then was A,2,5 all hearts, opponent put me all in and I called he showed down A9 off and my AQ won.

      Now against the same guy as before who from past experience had told me that he was a donk, I have AJ hearts, he limps in and I raise 4x blind, a short stack shoves all in which was less than my initial raise and the donk calls.

      Flop comes out 9,10,6 rainbow, he checks and I check.

      Turn comes a Q of diamonds which puts a diamond draw out. He checks and I bet just over half the side pot, he calls, river comes 4 of clubs, he bets 2,500 which is about 800 more than the side pot is.

      I kind of feel as though he has nothing but he did call my bet on the turn, if he had nothing then why would he call that unless he had a draw. I have a J in my hand so it seems unlikely he is calling for the straight which only leaves the Flush.

      That is pretty much all I'm beating though with AJ, a busted flush draw and I know he could have called me pre flop with any high card suited so he could have a Q in his hand, hell he could even of been playing A4 of diamonds or A6 of diamonds.

      All this is going through my head and I decide its not worth it and fold, the short stack who shoved had Q,10 and he won the pot, the guy I folded to showed down A7 diamonds and he took the side pot which was worth about about 2000.

      Can I realistically call in that spot? I mean I kind of read it right thinking he had a busted flush but it was the size of the bet which put me off, it was more than the pot and calling 2,500 out of my stack would have put me short stack if he had caught a lame pair.

      I'm not sure if I made a good decision or not by folding, would any of you have called in that spot?
  • 11 replies
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      The fold is perfectly fine - there is no need to gamble if you have an edge. You will find better spots to get his chips.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      Well the next time I got in a hand with him I was BB he was Sb, it folded round to us and he limped in, blinds were 200/400 I had A10 spades and raised to 1200, he called and the flop came KJx with 2 clubs, he shoved all in so I had to fold.

      That put me down to about 4000 chips and I eventually went out shoving with AQ diamonds, called by A10 off and first card out was a 10.

      So I didn't get a better spot because I got eliminated whereas if I'd called with AJ I'd have been in a much more dominant position.

      When I had A10 I could have shoved him all in instead of raising and when I had AQ I need not have shoved, I could have raised and folded.
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      Why did you fold your Nuflushdraw with 1 overcard as well as the gutshot?
      Since I don't have the exact numbers I am not sure, but you should normally have the odds to call his allin.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      it wasnt a nut flush draw, it was no flush draw, I had spades and it was KJ clubs.

      So a Q was an out, but maybe not the Q of clubs, and an A may have been an out but thats not certain.

      You would have called?
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      I misread the hand =)

      It's an obvious fold.

      Coming back to your first hand:
      In the end more bad and unlucky situations can't be the justification that allows you to gamble it up in the first spot you can find. The spot wasn't good and you have to find better spots - especially if you have a big edge. You had NO informations on your opponents' hand strength that could have justified a call - so why should you call? You played it perfectly fine!
      You should think less result orientated and believe in yourself. If you have hands that you are not sure about feel free to post them in our hand evaluation forums.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      yeah thats good advice, I just feel as though I maybe should have called because I did kind of feel he had a busted flush draw, I mean he overbet the pot first in so he could never have been that strong.

      Is it ever a good idea to call A high on the river? Or is it always a fold?
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      In most cases it's a fold - but there are situations where a call makes sense.

      Regards,
      Asaban
    • darkpenance0
      darkpenance0
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.10.2010 Posts: 156
      example?
    • Asaban
      Asaban
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,242
      Example would be a TT552 Board or (even better) a KKKK2 Board :)
    • Lukasz40i4
      Lukasz40i4
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2009 Posts: 644
      Originally posted by Asaban
      Example would be a TT552 Board or (even better) a KKKK2 Board :)
      Nah, your examples are not good. In TT552 its mostly a valuebet (depending on action obvsly), and on KKKK2 we have absolute nuts.

      Here are some examples.
      NOTE: Calling on A high is very opponent dependent.

      PokerStars Hand #78496050050: Tournament #567010586, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (60/120) - 2012/04/07 22:54:57 CET [2012/04/07 16:54:57 ET]
      Table '567010586 29' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
      Seat 1: RodMan_Alien (5388 in chips)
      Seat 2: chuster990 (2250 in chips)
      Seat 3: pro100kazak (8425 in chips)
      Seat 4: Wagi Wagi (7883 in chips)
      Seat 5: muffins_de (3775 in chips)
      Seat 6: lishine (1904 in chips)
      Seat 7: CHEMCHAM (1715 in chips)
      Seat 8: Syb0 (2545 in chips)
      Seat 9: Lukasz40i4 (5409 in chips)
      RodMan_Alien: posts the ante 15
      chuster990: posts the ante 15
      pro100kazak: posts the ante 15
      Wagi Wagi: posts the ante 15
      muffins_de: posts the ante 15
      lishine: posts the ante 15
      CHEMCHAM: posts the ante 15
      Syb0: posts the ante 15
      Lukasz40i4: posts the ante 15
      pro100kazak: posts small blind 60
      Wagi Wagi: posts big blind 120
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to Lukasz40i4 [Jh Ah]
      muffins_de: raises 240 to 360
      lishine: folds
      CHEMCHAM: folds
      Syb0: folds
      Lukasz40i4: calls 360
      RodMan_Alien: folds
      chuster990: folds
      pro100kazak: folds
      Wagi Wagi: calls 240
      *** FLOP *** [2s 7s 6d]
      Wagi Wagi: checks
      muffins_de: checks
      Lukasz40i4: checks
      *** TURN *** [2s 7s 6d] [5s]
      Wagi Wagi: checks
      muffins_de: checks
      Lukasz40i4: checks
      *** RIVER *** [2s 7s 6d 5s] [4d]
      Wagi Wagi: bets 480
      muffins_de: folds
      Lukasz40i4: calls 480
      *** SHOW DOWN ***
      Wagi Wagi: shows [Td Qc] (high card Queen)
      Lukasz40i4: shows [Jh Ah] (high card Ace)
      Lukasz40i4 collected 2235 from pot
      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot 2235 | Rake 0
      Board [2s 7s 6d 5s 4d]
      Seat 1: RodMan_Alien folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 2: chuster990 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 3: pro100kazak (small blind) folded before Flop
      Seat 4: Wagi Wagi (big blind) showed [Td Qc] and lost with high card Queen
      Seat 5: muffins_de folded on the River
      Seat 6: lishine folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 7: CHEMCHAM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 8: Syb0 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 9: Lukasz40i4 showed [Jh Ah] and won (2235) with high card Ace

      PokerStars Hand #76271422431: Tournament #561011337, $8.00+$0.80 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXXIII (4000/8000) - 2012/02/27 0:02:01 CET [2012/02/26 18:02:01 ET]
      Table '561011337 309' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
      Seat 1: Phil My Roll (140000 in chips)
      Seat 3: jlgranja (205026 in chips)
      Seat 4: Aimar15 (291176 in chips)
      Seat 5: danutache (340308 in chips)
      Seat 6: Dm1trySerg (131917 in chips)
      Seat 7: osipovsan (183160 in chips)
      Seat 8: Lukasz40i4 (239709 in chips)
      Seat 9: Skiller77 (145322 in chips)
      Phil My Roll: posts the ante 1000
      jlgranja: posts the ante 1000
      Aimar15: posts the ante 1000
      danutache: posts the ante 1000
      Dm1trySerg: posts the ante 1000
      osipovsan: posts the ante 1000
      Lukasz40i4: posts the ante 1000
      Skiller77: posts the ante 1000
      Skiller77: posts small blind 4000
      Phil My Roll: posts big blind 8000
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to Lukasz40i4 [Ad Qh]
      jlgranja: folds
      Aimar15: folds
      danutache: folds
      Dm1trySerg: folds
      osipovsan: folds
      Lukasz40i4: raises 8800 to 16800
      Skiller77: folds
      Phil My Roll: calls 8800
      *** FLOP *** [6h 8h 9s]
      Phil My Roll: checks
      Lukasz40i4: checks
      *** TURN *** [6h 8h 9s] [4s]
      Phil My Roll: bets 16000
      Lukasz40i4: calls 16000
      *** RIVER *** [6h 8h 9s 4s] [Kc]
      Phil My Roll: bets 24000
      Lukasz40i4: calls 24000
      *** SHOW DOWN ***
      Phil My Roll: shows [Qc Ts] (high card King)
      Lukasz40i4: shows [Ad Qh] (high card Ace)
      Lukasz40i4 collected 125600 from pot
      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot 125600 | Rake 0
      Board [6h 8h 9s 4s Kc]
      Seat 1: Phil My Roll (big blind) showed [Qc Ts] and lost with high card King
      Seat 3: jlgranja folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 4: Aimar15 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 5: danutache folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 6: Dm1trySerg folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 7: osipovsan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 8: Lukasz40i4 (button) showed [Ad Qh] and won (125600) with high card Ace
      Seat 9: Skiller77 (small blind) folded before Flop


      PokerStars Hand #78509373809: Tournament #540029166, $10.00+$2.50+$1.00 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVIII (4000/8000) - 2012/04/08 4:37:38 CET [2012/04/07 22:37:38 ET]
      Table '540029166 14' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
      Seat 2: NELSONWILSON (88022 in chips)
      Seat 3: jpy83 (197416 in chips)
      Seat 4: Lukasz40i4 (405786 in chips)
      Seat 5: Anddru (245044 in chips)
      Seat 6: EVGENIJ_MAT (498473 in chips)
      Seat 7: vlad-Ty3 (178722 in chips)
      Seat 9: 0nFront29 (99537 in chips)
      NELSONWILSON: posts the ante 1000
      jpy83: posts the ante 1000
      Lukasz40i4: posts the ante 1000
      Anddru: posts the ante 1000
      EVGENIJ_MAT: posts the ante 1000
      vlad-Ty3: posts the ante 1000
      0nFront29: posts the ante 1000
      Anddru: posts small blind 4000
      EVGENIJ_MAT: posts big blind 8000
      *** HOLE CARDS ***
      Dealt to Lukasz40i4 [Ac 7s]
      vlad-Ty3: folds
      0nFront29: folds
      NELSONWILSON: folds
      jpy83: folds
      Lukasz40i4: raises 8800 to 16800
      Anddru: folds
      EVGENIJ_MAT: calls 8800
      *** FLOP *** [Th 3h 2s]
      EVGENIJ_MAT: checks
      Lukasz40i4: bets 16000
      EVGENIJ_MAT: calls 16000
      *** TURN *** [Th 3h 2s] [Js]
      EVGENIJ_MAT: checks
      Lukasz40i4: checks
      *** RIVER *** [Th 3h 2s Js] [5c]
      EVGENIJ_MAT: bets 32000
      Lukasz40i4: calls 32000
      *** SHOW DOWN ***
      EVGENIJ_MAT: shows [Qc 6s] (high card Queen)
      Lukasz40i4: shows [Ac 7s] (high card Ace)
      Lukasz40i4 collected 140600 from pot
      *** SUMMARY ***
      Total pot 140600 | Rake 0
      Board [Th 3h 2s Js 5c]
      Seat 2: NELSONWILSON folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 3: jpy83 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 4: Lukasz40i4 (button) showed [Ac 7s] and won (140600) with high card Ace
      Seat 5: Anddru (small blind) folded before Flop
      Seat 6: EVGENIJ_MAT (big blind) showed [Qc 6s] and lost with high card Queen
      Seat 7: vlad-Ty3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
      Seat 9: 0nFront29 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    • amanofhisword
      amanofhisword
      Basic
      Joined: 10.03.2013 Posts: 41
      Hello,

      I would have kept the pot small by checking back on the turn as the side pot was pretty small by then. in that situation the "donkey" with A7 would have most likely checked he river and you would have won the small side pot.
      there is no real reason the bet the turn there.

      as far as calling the river, against another opponent you would have folded without hurting over it... but your history with this guy made you think harder, but that actually makes it kinda hard to call, cause you know that he knows what you are thinking about him which would make his play on the river a value bet more often than a bluff.

      I strongly feel you made the right fold

      good luck at the tables