[NL20-NL50] KK pre- and postflop (slow)play

    • PoincaresConjecture
      PoincaresConjecture
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2011 Posts: 115
      PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
      Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

      BTN: $52.25
      SB: $50.00
      Hero (BB): $66.67
      UTG: $57.39
      MP: $61.59
      CO: $59.59

      SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

      Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has K:heart: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, SB raises to $4.50, Hero calls $4.00, CO calls $3.00

      Flop: ($13.50, 3 players) 5:heart: 7:heart: T:spade:
      SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $9.02, fold, Hero raises to $22.00, CO calls $12.98

      Turn: ($57.50, 2 players) 5:diamond:
      Hero checks, CO bets $33.09 and is all-in, Hero calls $33.09

      River: ($123.68, 2 players) 4:diamond:

      Hero shows K:heart: K:diamond: (Two Pair, Kings and Fives) (Pre 83%, Flop 80%, Turn 95%)
      CO mucks T:diamond: 9:club: (Two Pair, Tens and Fives) (Pre 17%, Flop 20%, Turn 5%)
      Hero wins $121.18


      CO: 25/21/9 3b kind of aggro
      SB: 18/15/5 3b nitty

      what do you guys think of my play?
  • 8 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello PoincaresConjecture,

      Preflop: Very dangerous cause you are giving very good odds for CO to Call with wide range.

      As played
      Flop: I'd just lead out myself and protect my hand here, Check/Raising may scare away a lot worse hands.

      As played
      Turn: Why would you Check/Call? He is just going to Check behind with draws, shove it.

      Best Regards.
    • PoincaresConjecture
      PoincaresConjecture
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2011 Posts: 115
      hi veriz,

      thanks a lot for your quick response.

      my reasonings were:

      the SB is a nit and i assume his 3b range here is very polarized, so i flat to keep his whole range in. i had no dynamic with him that he could think I'm cold 4betting him light. of course i usually also just 4b here and get it in, but sometimes u wanna try something different.

      of course the CO gets good odds, but look at his equity with T9o for example, i think thats ok.

      when SB checks the flop, he's giving up almost always.
      If i lead the flop, i feel my hand is pretty face up (regarding the pre flop action) and looks very strong. however if i check, the aggro CO will bet his whole weak range as a positional bet.

      also i feel c/r the flop makes my hand look weaker as if i lead. it looks like a draw or AK/AQ. when CO bet/calls the flop i put him on Tx, FD, sets and floats.
      if he perceives my range as draws or AK/AQ (or maybe some slow played monsters), he will ship this whole range on the turn when i check to him, either as a (semi)bluff or for protection, because i again look like a bluff thats giving up.

      obv i wouldn't choose this line against nits or fishes. but i think its not bad against a very aggressive opponent.

      can you understand my thought process? are my assumptions wrong?

      best regards
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      the SB is a nit and i assume his 3b range here is very polarized, so i flat to keep his whole range in. i had no dynamic with him that he could think I'm cold 4betting him light. of course i usually also just 4b here and get it in, but sometimes u wanna try something different.

      I was mainly referring to CO, cause we ain't playing only against BB. CO will get super-good odds to Call even with SCs I'd say vs such a 3bet size.

      of course the CO gets good odds, but look at his equity with T9o for example, i think thats ok.

      In this case he is just bad, his play obviously doesn't make sense at all.

      If i lead the flop, i feel my hand is pretty face up (regarding the pre flop action) and looks very strong. however if i check, the aggro CO will bet his whole weak range as a positional bet.

      Why should he try to bluff a 3bet pot being in a multiway pot? He will mainly lead with made hands, if he has a draw he is going to Call us anyways, if he has made hand he is going to Call us. So why would you want to Check it here, especially Check/Raise? You are giving him even the correct odds to draw there, so what's the purpose of it?

      also i feel c/r the flop makes my hand look weaker as if i lead. it looks like a draw or AK/AQ. when CO bet/calls the flop i put him on Tx, FD, sets and floats.

      Huh? Look weaker? In 3bet pot, do you ever see people bluffing like that? Or would you ever bluff here with total air like that? HIGHLY doubt.

      So, not really, I can't understand your thoughts.
    • PoincaresConjecture
      PoincaresConjecture
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2011 Posts: 115
      firstly, i see all your points.

      i have some more questions then:

      1) good odds to the cutoff/playing heads up ip against the small blind:

      CO obv gets good odds. but considering he opened CO like 45%, how often does he actually have a hand (SC's, PP etc.) that can call with the odds he gets? with the holding he actually called with, he didn't have enough equity regarding his pot odds and thus made a mistake.

      2) c/r flop

      im c/r the flop for value. so as played how much would be an appropriate raise size?

      3) CO betting the flop as a bluff

      why wouldn't he bluff here? its obv that SB is giving up, and i can have AK/AQ/KQs whatever he thinks i called with pre thats giving up. You said yourself that we shouldn't have c/r or c/c range here.


      4) about flatting pre from BB vs SB resteal:

      how big has SB 3b range to be here for you to start flatting a hand like AQs or some thing (because then we want to balance with AA/KK)? or do you always 4b or fold?

      and especially against tight 3bettors with a very polarized range, i don't think i make a lot of money with 4b/broke w AK and JJ+. doesnt it make sense to just flat at least some of the time?

      best regards
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      CO obv gets good odds. but considering he opened CO like 45%, how often does he actually have a hand (SC's, PP etc.) that can call with the odds he gets? with the holding he actually called with, he didn't have enough equity regarding his pot odds and thus made a mistake.

      Huh? What has it to do with 45% range and how often he has them? He has there most of the good SCs/PPs = 100% of them. :D Yes, he has cause you are giving him good odds while calling.

      im c/r the flop for value. so as played how much would be an appropriate raise size?

      I have mentioned above, I wouldn't Check/Raise in first place, I would donk out which wouldn't make weak hands to fold. You just got lucky that he is so bad to Call down you with T pair.

      why wouldn't he bluff here? its obv that SB is giving up, and i can have AK/AQ/KQs whatever he thinks i called with pre thats giving up. You said yourself that we shouldn't have c/r or c/c range here.

      I said Check/Raising is bad, didn't say anything about other part. If you would go back then you would read that I said it's a 3bet pot, it's a 3way pot so his bluffing range is either for value or he has some kind of draw himself.

      how big has SB 3b range to be here for you to start flatting a hand like AQs or some thing (because then we want to balance with AA/KK)? or do you always 4b or fold?

      No, I am mainly 3betting when I see those small 3bets and we would give very good odds. Also the opponent has to have a really wide 3betting range for me to go for Call. Right now you ain't taking into account at all that you have another player to act and going to play the hand OOP and being multiway + giving him correct odds to Call.

      and especially against tight 3bettors with a very polarized range, i don't think i make a lot of money with 4b/broke w AK and JJ+. doesnt it make sense to just flat at least some of the time?

      Why would you Call with AK/JJ or whatsoever vs tight 3bettor? You don't even have him beat so what's the plan with the hand, even worse than calling with KK which at least can be said that it's not a huge mistake.

      4betting can be done cause we could turn our hand into bluff while we know that the continue range of them is going to be the nuts mainly as KK+.
    • PoincaresConjecture
      PoincaresConjecture
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2011 Posts: 115
      Originally posted by veriz
      CO obv gets good odds. but considering he opened CO like 45%, how often does he actually have a hand (SC's, PP etc.) that can call with the odds he gets? with the holding he actually called with, he didn't have enough equity regarding his pot odds and thus made a mistake.

      Huh? What has it to do with 45% range and how often he has them? He has there most of the good SCs/PPs = 100% of them. :D Yes, he has cause you are giving him good odds while calling.

      im c/r the flop for value. so as played how much would be an appropriate raise size?

      I have mentioned above, I wouldn't Check/Raise in first place, I would donk out which wouldn't make weak hands to fold. You just got lucky that he is so bad to Call down you with T pair.

      why wouldn't he bluff here? its obv that SB is giving up, and i can have AK/AQ/KQs whatever he thinks i called with pre thats giving up. You said yourself that we shouldn't have c/r or c/c range here.

      I said Check/Raising is bad, didn't say anything about other part. If you would go back then you would read that I said it's a 3bet pot, it's a 3way pot so his bluffing range is either for value or he has some kind of draw himself.

      how big has SB 3b range to be here for you to start flatting a hand like AQs or some thing (because then we want to balance with AA/KK)? or do you always 4b or fold?

      No, I am mainly 3betting when I see those small 3bets and we would give very good odds. Also the opponent has to have a really wide 3betting range for me to go for Call. Right now you ain't taking into account at all that you have another player to act and going to play the hand OOP and being multiway + giving him correct odds to Call.

      and especially against tight 3bettors with a very polarized range, i don't think i make a lot of money with 4b/broke w AK and JJ+. doesnt it make sense to just flat at least some of the time?

      Why would you Call with AK/JJ or whatsoever vs tight 3bettor? You don't even have him beat so what's the plan with the hand, even worse than calling with KK which at least can be said that it's not a huge mistake.

      4betting can be done cause we could turn our hand into bluff while we know that the continue range of them is going to be the nuts mainly as KK+.
      of course all SC's etc. are in this 45% range but also will a lot of other crap, which he will just fold, which means that like 50%+ of the time I'm HU ip with the SB. he won't continue with his whole 45% CO opening range, if he does thats even better.

      I'm thinking about flatting AK and JJ-AA against tight POLARIZED 3b range ip because as u said, he's only continuing with maybe just KK+ if i cold 4b, which means I'm turning AK and JJ-QQ into a bluff. however if i flat, i keep his weak hands (SC's etc.), which are in his yet tight but POLARIZED 3b range, in. so range vs range I'm AHEAD not behind and i have position. isn't that something to think about?

      I didn't know somebody can "bluff for value", or do you mean he thinks he's value betting when he's in fact not?

      why does he "always have a draw" or kinda made hand?
      if we assume that CO flatting range will be wide, he will miss the flop a lot. so u think he's not trying to bluff the flop with his air, facing 2 people checking to him. keeping in mind, SB was 3b vs CO (so he can be c/f the flop a lot, and hero shouldn't have a c/continuing range on the flop either, as u suggest)? it would be a profitable bluff under these circumstances wouldn't it?

      Kind regards
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      of course all SC's etc. are in this 45% range but also will a lot of other crap, which he will just fold, which means that like 50%+ of the time I'm HU ip with the SB. he won't continue with his whole 45% CO opening range, if he does thats even better.

      45% range CO range? Myself being pretty loose and even I don't have 45% range range and not sure how many those kind of players I ever even seen who open 45% range from CO. Nor his PFR doesn't look like he opens that many. So doesn't really make sense.

      I'm thinking about flatting AK and JJ-AA against tight POLARIZED 3b range ip because as u said, he's only continuing with maybe just KK+ if i cold 4b, which means I'm turning AK and JJ-QQ into a bluff. however if i flat, i keep his weak hands (SC's etc.), which are in his yet tight but POLARIZED 3b range, in. so range vs range I'm AHEAD not behind and i have position. isn't that something to think about?

      Yes, that's what I said, we are turning our hand into bluff cause with calling vs nitty range you wont do good either, you just set-mining with JJ/QQ and nor can't be sure where you stand if you hit something with AK cause he could have KK/AA. So what's the purpose of calling with them???

      I didn't know somebody can "bluff for value", or do you mean he thinks he's value betting when he's in fact not?

      I don't get your question? Huh?

      why does he "always have a draw" or kinda made hand?

      Because his range consist of a lot SCs in that spot and a lot of PPs? Would assume that something like KQ or whatsoever would never bet here unless he has some backdoor FD himself.

      if we assume that CO flatting range will be wide, he will miss the flop a lot. so u think he's not trying to bluff the flop with his air, facing 2 people checking to him. keeping in mind, SB was 3b vs CO (so he can be c/f the flop a lot, and hero shouldn't have a c/continuing range on the flop either, as u suggest)? it would be a profitable bluff under these circumstances wouldn't it?

      See above.
    • PoincaresConjecture
      PoincaresConjecture
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.10.2011 Posts: 115
      I didn't know somebody can "bluff for value", or do you mean he thinks he's value betting when he's in fact not?

      I don't get your question? Huh?

      "I said Check/Raising is bad, didn't say anything about other part. If you would go back then you would read that I said it's a 3bet pot, it's a 3way pot so his bluffing range is either for value or he has some kind of draw himself."

      Thanks again for your analysis, i definitely see the merits of the lines u suggested. Im looking forward to posting more hands here, as it will definitely improve my game.

      cheers