NL 600 KJs

    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $6(BB) Pacific
      SB ($600)
      Hero ($897)
      UTG ($600)
      UTG+1 ($236)
      CO ($1,931)
      BTN ($722)

      Dealt to Hero J:diamond: K:diamond:

      fold, fold, CO raises to $18, fold, fold, Hero calls $12

      FLOP ($39) 8:club: J:club: J:heart:

      Hero checks, CO bets $29.25, Hero raises to $85, CO calls $55.75

      TURN ($209) 8:club: J:club: J:heart: Q:club:

      Hero bets $155, CO calls $155

      RIVER ($519) 8:club: J:club: J:heart: Q:club: 7:club:

      Hero checks, CO bets $355, Hero folds

      CO wins $515

      Villain is 22/19, steal from CO 25%, 85% cbet, fold cbet to raise 0% (1),
      41% agg. frequency18% WTSD. Knows I can raise cbets light as we've played some HU, he wasn't playing back at those HU.
      Shove river?
  • 19 replies
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey Martin,

      How is the progression to 600nl, have you noticed any big changes to the games from your normal 200/400nl games?

      Pre flop I think is fine, 3bet is definitely ok too, but calling keeps his range wider and we definitely do well vs that range.

      On the flop I think raising is good, we can represent alot of draws and he will continue in the hand with alot worse hands.

      Turn sizing seems good as its setting up a pot sized river jam. It is quite a scary card though.

      On the river I think we can to c/f, I think he has quite alot of combos that beat us but most importantly on the river I don't think he has any bluffs. Like if he has 1010 no clubs he MAY bluff but even then there are very few combos.
    • PhilHellmuth4321
      PhilHellmuth4321
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      Joined: 18.09.2009 Posts: 17
      what do u do on a completely blank river like 2 of spades???
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      its really close, but I think we should shove.

      vs some opponents with low wtsd and good reads we can legit c/f though.
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      Hey. NL600 is pretty cool, deffo not as tough as I thought it would be.
      As the board ran out, what do you assume is the bottom of his calling range on river?
      Also, I have $639 left on river, the pot is $519. The river shove would be an overbet. Would you still shove with valuehands?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Ah ok, with the hand replayer like this its hard to see stack sizes.

      Bottom of his calling range here would probably be Kcx. You weren't thinking about some sexy bluff were you? :D
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      I was considering it but went for the nitty play as I don't know enough about him ... Since he hasn't been playing back at me when playing HU, he probably has quite a strong range here anyway ...
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      I think flop raise size should be a lot larger btw. If we raise bigger its easier to get a pot sized river jam on the river whilst still not looking like a big overbet on the flop.
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      I raise this flop with many bluffs because it's quite hard for MP for continue, hence the low raise.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Why do you think its hard for him to continue? I think that he will continue with a lot of hands here as you rep very very little.
    • z1pz0r
      z1pz0r
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      Joined: 12.08.2009 Posts: 981
      enough airs and low pockets, i do a lot of low raises in bb vs bu, but perhaps i should raise bigger if their range is tighter, yes.

      but not a lot bigger, 98 would be fine imo.

      how much would u raise to?
    • Bierbaer
      Bierbaer
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      Joined: 27.05.2005 Posts: 7,989
      Hi,

      his CO-opening-range probably looks smth like this:
      22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A9o+, KTo+, QJo, JTo, T9o

      He cbets quite a bit in general, the question is if he'd cbet with pure air here given we don't call superlight vs his CO-range and therefore hit this board quite a bit.

      So I'd go with a worst case assumption and assume his range is smth like this:
      88+,ATs+,A8s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,Ac9c,Ac7c,Kc7c,Ac6c,7c6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,AJo+,KTo+,QJo

      which equals a little bit more than a 60% cbet-range.

      Since he gets good odds he probably peels quite a bit of this range (probably even smth like QT), I'd assume he folds smth like AQo though since it has reverse implied odds.

      That narrows his callingrange on the flop down to this:
      88+,AJs,A8s,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,AcKc,AcQc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac7c,Kc7c,9c7c,Ac6c,7c6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c,AJo,KTo+,QJo

      I agree with pleno to make it bigger in order to set up better stacksizes.

      On the turn there are several considerations:
      First of all this is a very scary card because it completes all our draws - and we do have quite some draws in our range.
      Second however, we do also have a decent amount of bluffs, and we have only few Qx in our checkraisingrange - AQ and KQ are probably the only ones as we don't even call QT preflop.

      The question is how we want to construct our bettingrange here, and if we (want to) have a range for giving up - we'd continue most/all bluffs and we'd usually bet the flushes for value, so what's left is Jx and straights.
      It's tough to say if he expects us to play them face up, but if we check here IMO he'd take his SD-value/draws to the river by checking back because our range looks so much like Jx and T9.
      So the turnbet is good, I also like the sizing.

      I have trouble estimating his callingrange on the turn because I'm not sure how good the average reg on NL600 actually is and if most of them would go for another call with TT/99/98/87 here because they have a read or if they'd just fold, or even turn those weak hands into bluffs.

      On balance I agree with c/folding and would even go as far as saying that a bet (whether it's a shove or not) is probably -EV because he has quite some nutflushes in his range and would probably even call Khigh flushes.
      So the only hands we fold out are lower flushes (probably not more than 5 combos) and perhaps AJ - if he decided not to shove the turn with AJ.
      Also if he calls the turn with AJ, he might actually do it with the plan of calling a club river because we'd not turn a Jhigh flush into a bluff and therefore our range contains enough bluffs for him to call.


      Weee long post, discuss! :D
    • CallumN
      CallumN
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      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      I was thinking of shoving river at first. But we only have 5 legit value combos imo. Since we only defend QJs pre and we dont jam river with Ac?

      I think we have no choice but to check fold.

      Brick rivers is tough too. I think we have to lean towards check folding on a brick river too since its pretty hard for him to call with worse otr
    • MADAR1
      MADAR1
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      Joined: 25.07.2012 Posts: 11
      Problem is with checking river and not turning our hand into a bluff that a good competent player will shove almost 100% of his range when checked to on this river as we are always check folding..
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      :s_love:
      Originally posted by MADAR1
      Problem is with checking river and not turning our hand into a bluff that a good competent player will shove almost 100% of his range when checked to on this river as we are always check folding..
      Does villain ever get to river with a worse hand than a straight though?
    • FeelMeFlow
      FeelMeFlow
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      Joined: 03.08.2012 Posts: 7
      Originally posted by pleno1
      :s_love:
      Originally posted by MADAR1
      Problem is with checking river and not turning our hand into a bluff that a good competent player will shove almost 100% of his range when checked to on this river as we are always check folding..
      Does villain ever get to river with a worse hand than a straight though?
      We shouldn't always be check folding. With this hand I think it's best because a c/r wouldn't even be for double his raise. But because checking here looks like we're giving up it's a good spot to check boats and let him bluff or shove worse. Im not sure about this, but I think people will shove lighter here when checked to than they will call a shove so we should be checking made hands some % of the time on the river. That % is opponent and read dependent
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
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      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Oh man :( I think this is a ship tbh, I don't see him calling small clubs and even hands as strong as K-high flushes are very hard pressed to call here. If we check I think we lose close to 100%. But on the other hand, what low clubs are aiming to fold out :/ I think this is very very close.

      If river was a brick I'd probably check/fold
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Which Kc can he really have though? I can't think of hardly any combos except Kc Kx that gets to river.

      If we jam its basically to fold out 109 and 10c 10x or 9c 9x, but both he will possibly/probably fold on the turn.

      I don't see him having any hands that beat us that will fold often when we jam as a bluff and don't see him ever value betting worse or bluffing better so would just go ahead and c/f river.
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
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      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,023
      If u want to play ur hand just for its own value, dont bet this T in the first place.

      shoving this R w the play on F/T is imo totally mandatory vs anyone semidecent, u dont have a bluffrange rly if u dont bluff w the best possible hand for cardremoval
    • pleno1
      pleno1
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      Ok i changed my mind. Let's jam :)