nl500 zoom AK 4bet pot oop

    • PhilHellmuth4321
      PhilHellmuth4321
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.09.2009 Posts: 17
      Unknown villain, only 5 hands. Is this fine? Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

      Poker Stars, $2.50/$5 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

      BTN: $853.70 (170.7 bb)
      SB: $393.80 (78.8 bb)
      BB: $375.69 (75.1 bb)
      UTG: $530.76 (106.2 bb)
      MP: $632.27 (126.5 bb)
      Hero (CO): $902.90 (180.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with A:heart: K:diamond:
      2 folds, Hero raises to $15, BTN raises to $45, 2 folds, Hero raises to $115, BTN calls $70

      Flop: ($237.50) T:spade: 3:heart: 5:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $110, BTN calls $110

      Turn: ($457.50) J:heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $320, BTN raises to $628.70 and is all-in, Hero calls $308.70
  • 10 replies
    • giraffe1977
      giraffe1977
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.07.2008 Posts: 2,857
      flop is standard i guess ones he call i put him on a overpair.

      I like the betsizing on the turn cause now when he jams you get 4,5 to 1 so with a nfd you are commited. Am not if you have enough equity against his range wich might contain jj now (tt would raise otf i guess)

      to bad you have no reads, the you could als concider taking a free card.

      I also struggle in this spot so i would love to see what other regs/coach have to say.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      I don't like that turn sizing because it definitely commits us with any hand and he can always play perfectly vs that. I rather go for ~1/2 pot which leaves same amount on the river. Then we will get something around 1:3 to call if he jams and still it's OK to call IMO.
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      Originally posted by getdotacom
      I don't like that turn sizing because it definitely commits us with any hand and he can always play perfectly vs that. I rather go for ~1/2 pot which leaves same amount on the river. Then we will get something around 1:3 to call if he jams and still it's OK to call IMO.
      Like this thought process!
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      Originally posted by giraffe1977
      flop is standard i guess ones he call i put him on a overpair.

      I like the betsizing on the turn cause now when he jams you get 4,5 to 1 so with a nfd you are commited. Am not if you have enough equity against his range wich might contain jj now (tt would raise otf i guess)

      to bad you have no reads, the you could als concider taking a free card.

      I also struggle in this spot so i would love to see what other regs/coach have to say.
      Can we expect villain to have a raising range on the flop? I think it makes more sense to take our very strong value hands (like sets) to the turn and let Hero barrel, also call with the medium value hands.

      Given this I'd expect raises on this flop to be bluffs/semibluffs. What do you think about this?
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey,

      Good discussion guys. I often used to do these bet big lines ott to price myself in but I think they are very "gambly" kind of lines and definitely not optimal.

      Agree a lot with getdotcom and definitely think that is the line we should take here. Especially as he doesn't have a huge value range OTT. And we will often have quite a lot of clean outs.
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      Well if you make these bets to commit yourself I think that villain knows that as well and will pretty much play perfectly imo.

      From what I've studied there should be 2 possible bet sizes here for us, the one that getadot suggested or shoving (villain kinda knows that we are commiting ourselves, right?).

      If villain forces us to make a BE call on the turn with our draw isn't it the worst case for us?
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,023
      dont overplay AK PF this deep vs unknown
    • eszibit
      eszibit
      Bronze
      Joined: 10.12.2007 Posts: 1,964
      vs unknown is pretty hard to play it perfectly , i would just call the 3b oop because we dominate a lot of his range and take it on from there.

      As played i would think about check calling turn because i consider us behind a lot in a 4b pot on that flop&turn. rivered straight i would donk shove and nut flush maybe go for a fake block bet . A,K i think i check-fold.

      i know standard is to bet/bet again on the turn but in my experience they raise there a lot since they have to protect any kind of value hand.
    • abhi147
      abhi147
      Bronze
      Joined: 12.08.2011 Posts: 935
      Hey sorry if this is a dumb or off topic question
      But i want to understand what range do you give the villian here?
      JJ QQ?
      I find playing AK OOP very tough against unknowns as well and this kinda board sort of connects his range in some way.
      But then this is NL500 even the unknowns wont be as bad/fishy as those at the micro limits
    • Kruppe
      Kruppe
      Black
      Joined: 20.02.2008 Posts: 2,144
      this line (probably with smaller turn-sizing) being a solid line depends on villain flatting AQ,KQ,AK,88-99 type hands very often preflop and flop, right? not saying i don't think that's the case. just saying.
      and yeah, smaller turn size seems better due to the reasons gedota mentioned, and i think an additional reason is that the big size just makes our range look even more semibluff heavy than it already is preflop. but i guess this depends on the meta-game. i can imagine regs starting to think that this sizing is actually good with value hands due to the board being so drawy or whatever despite the weird size left behind, and it becoming standard to use this size for value. in this case it would of course be worth considering using this size with AK, be it for balancing or lvling reasons.