QQ again !!!!

    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      Hi everyone ! I have a new hand to share with you guys that I think I played pretty bad. It's Fast Poker Titan ( same thing as Zoom poker on Stars ).

      Blinds 0.02$ - 0.05$, 6-handed, everybody folds to me in CO. I had QQ and I raise 0.15$, getting called by the BB. My stack was 8.50$, his was 6.15$.

      Flop 3 4 9 rainbow, the pot was 0.32$, he bets 0.50$ ( a pretty big bet for a set in my opinion, or for 2 pairs, on a flop with no draws ). I decide just to call here.
      Turn 7, still no flush draw, the villan bets 1.40$ in a 1.32$ pot ( ambitious bastard ), I decide to call as well.

      River J, he pushes all in 4.30$ in a 4.10$ pot and I instantly call. He shows 9Jo and wins the 13$ pot.

      Now, the way I see it, on the turn I should've decide either to push all in ( if I thought I was better ), or to fold if I was thinking I was an underdog against a set. Obviously, I was thinking I am better since I called the flop bet, turn and river bet without hesitation ( and I was right, till the river came ).
      In conclusion, after I calmed down :) , I think the hand was correctly played until the turn, where I had to shove or fold, but the way I see it, as he was value betting for me, the call was semi - OK as well.

      Please tell me what you think ! Cheers !
  • 35 replies
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      So no answers ?!? I have a read on you people now and I have to chose:

      1. I am the stupid fish and I don't deserve an answer

      2. The hand was played entirely correct so there is nothing to add

      3. Nobody knows what's the best play here


      Hopefully it's not the first one:) . The situation is bad enough as it is. I am in a downswing and you people are not helping by ignoring me !:) )
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      your read is wrong!
      what actually happened is that poker players are a bunch of lazy blokes.

      i prefer to just fold turn. :f_biggrin: but as it went note him down and next time just raise him and stack off on the flop. he obviously thought that he was value betting.
    • FlashDavin
      FlashDavin
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2011 Posts: 421
      There really is a lot of QQ in this thread.

      Hey, you got roughed up by a fishy player. Mark it. Note he value bets his J9o and profit in the future. Bad beats happen!
    • BObamaJr
      BObamaJr
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2012 Posts: 232
      Use a HUD. It will make everything easier.
    • Phenomenomzor
      Phenomenomzor
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.09.2010 Posts: 152
      Note that he donks top pair with huge bets. Without reads I think you played it just fine, he just got lucky on river.
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      Makes everything easier in posting hands, but how will it help me in fast poker where I change the table after every hand:) .. I don't even know if a HUD is working there to begin with...
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Originally posted by Rahica
      So no answers ?!? I have a read on you people now and I have to chose:

      1. I am the stupid fish and I don't deserve an answer

      2. The hand was played entirely correct so there is nothing to add

      3. Nobody knows what's the best play here


      Hopefully it's not the first one:) . The situation is bad enough as it is. I am in a downswing and you people are not helping by ignoring me !:) )
      I tried to help myself,but man,I'm sorry

      I lol'd
    • PokerFaggot
      PokerFaggot
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.06.2012 Posts: 1
      the thing is, you're saying he wouldn't have played like that if it was a set, yet from the looks of his play he obviously would if he's doing that with top pair... and then where would you be.. you'd be coming in here asking where you went wrong when the obvious answer was just to fold from the flop...

      im only a noob but you definitly need to figure out a better way to play QQ KK and AA if your opponant is going to do that on the flop, you know what i mean...
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      Seriously, everybody has opinions but for me, who over bets a pot 2 times with a set on a board that has no draws on it and no chance of catching a monster there? Not even fishes do this kind of stuff. With a set on the flop, I think most of us would agree that we could play it with a check-call on the flop and a check raise on most turns ( in some cases like hitting a 4 of a kind, of course you wouldn't play it that way ).

      If he had a set, there is no reason for him to scare me off from a flop with no danger to him whatsoever. So by him over betting, I assumed that he doesn't have a big hand, just top pair, and I am a big favorite there ( which was a good read by the way )... In addition to that, he was value betting for me, so there was no reason for me to 3 bet him and scare him off. In the end, he paired the jack, but on the flop he had 5 outs, meaning exactly 18.38% for him to win that hand.

      I've been playing this game for 7 years constantly now and I am looking for more elaborated responses than " he bets the flop, why don't you fold?"... It's poker, people bet sometimes, doesn't mean that you are an underdog just because they bet !

      Anyway, thanks everyone for replying to my post, good or bad responses !
    • FlashDavin
      FlashDavin
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2011 Posts: 421
      People don't typically overbet a rainbow board looking for protection with top pair man...

      He's a fish, and fish don't always have a reason for their play which makes them almost random and hard to read; if you've played poker for so long you surely know this! :D
    • Tomaloc
      Tomaloc
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.01.2011 Posts: 6,858
      so what if you've been playing for 7 years, it's mostly about how much effort you put into improving. most fish have been fish for their entire life and don't even care :f_biggrin:

      people do random things on the flop, but the turn is usually serious business. i strongly maintain that it should be a fold without extra reads.
      yeah, it's not standard, but so what? if he indeed had a set, he just managed to get your entire stack and make you feel like a retard.
      also do you feel comfortable with an overpair after being c/r'd on a dry turn?
    • Rahica
      Rahica
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.06.2011 Posts: 149
      I'm not bragging about playing poker for that long, but just because people see my "bronze" status they think that I just started playing poker and I get "the attitude" from people who are still playing SSS. I am not here to fight, I just wanted my hand analyzed more seriously than: "he makes a pot sized bet preflop, you have to fold" routine.
      If you want to discuss standard play, on that flop, doesn't matter what the bet was, I was suppose to 3bet him, and if I got 4beted, instant shove ! That you can find in any poker book, if you find yourself having an overpair on a flop like that, you have to value bet till the end. Sometimes you can be up against KK or AA or even a set, but it's poker, you can't win them all !
      In the end, probably would've had the same ending, losing all my money to him, but at least I had the fold equity. On the other hand, imagine that the river card is a blank, how much value I extracted from him until the river?
      Still don't have a firm response to this hand. I want to take in consideration your "folding on the turn" option but it's hard to do it ( maybe because now I know what he had ).
      All in all, don't really think a 3 bet on the flop would fold him there, he was clearly thinking his hand rules. On the turn, again, no scare card for him so he was ready to push all in and catch it on the river.
      Anyway, thanks for the help ! Cheers guys !
    • dogma18
      dogma18
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.12.2009 Posts: 340
      i would've played it exactly the same as you did, stop crying and put some volume in!!
    • Lazza61
      Lazza61
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 23.03.2011 Posts: 9,245
      Originally posted by Rahica
      Hi everyone ! I have a new hand to share with you guys that I think I played pretty bad. It's Fast Poker Titan ( same thing as Zoom poker on Stars ).

      Blinds 0.02$ - 0.05$, 6-handed, everybody folds to me in CO. I had QQ and I raise 0.15$, getting called by the BB. My stack was 8.50$, his was 6.15$.

      Flop 3 4 9 rainbow, the pot was 0.32$, he bets 0.50$ ( a pretty big bet for a set in my opinion, or for 2 pairs, on a flop with no draws ). I decide just to call here.
      Turn 7, still no flush draw, the CO bets 1.40$ in a 1.32$ pot ( ambitious bastard ), I decide to call as well.

      River J, he pushes all in 4.30$ in a 4.10$ pot and I instantly call. He shows 9Jo and wins the 13$ pot.

      Now, the way I see it, on the turn I should've decide either to push all in ( if I thought I was better ), or to fold if I was thinking I was an underdog against a set. Obviously, I was thinking I am better since I called the flop bet, turn and river bet without hesitation ( and I was right, till the river came ).
      In conclusion, after I calmed down :) , I think the hand was correctly played until the turn, where I had to shove or fold, but the way I see it, as he was value betting for me, the call was semi - OK as well.

      Please tell me what you think ! Cheers !

      Let's consider what you're opponent may have been thinking.
      First off you raise from LP

      a) Opponent puts you on pocket pair or AK AQ type hand
      b) Opponent thinks you're stealing blinds

      Flop 943 rainbow

      Opponent overbets pot from hitting top pair. When you flat call opponent discounts pocket pair and now definitely reads you as having AK AQ type hands. The overbet is to make you fold that type of hand or make you pay to draw your high card.

      When you flat call turn, he is even more convinced of his read so again he overbets for value. With no draws to hurt him, he is now 99% sure he has the best hand and won't slow down unless Q K or A rivers.

      If you had raised his flop overbet he would have given you credit for an overpair and probably slow down his aggression or maybe even make him fold.

      Hope this helps
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Originally posted by Rahica
      Seriously, everybody has opinions but for me, who over bets a pot 2 times with a set on a board that has no draws on it and no chance of catching a monster there? Not even fishes do this kind of stuff. With a set on the flop, I think most of us would agree that we could play it with a check-call on the flop and a check raise on most turns ( in some cases like hitting a 4 of a kind, of course you wouldn't play it that way ).

      If he had a set, there is no reason for him to scare me off from a flop with no danger to him whatsoever. So by him over betting, I assumed that he doesn't have a big hand, just top pair, and I am a big favorite there ( which was a good read by the way )... In addition to that, he was value betting for me, so there was no reason for me to 3 bet him and scare him off. In the end, he paired the jack, but on the flop he had 5 outs, meaning exactly 18.38% for him to win that hand.

      I've been playing this game for 7 years constantly now and I am looking for more elaborated responses than " he bets the flop, why don't you fold?"... It's poker, people bet sometimes, doesn't mean that you are an underdog just because they bet !

      Anyway, thanks everyone for replying to my post, good or bad responses !
      You are totally right,I don't think he plays a set like that either,people saying "if he plays TP like that ofc he plays a set the same way",are totally wrong. Rec players have a notion of absolute hand strength and they certainly play them differently,otherwise they would be balanced in most spots,which would stop them from being rec players.

      Imo,the hand is played correctly vs. his line. If J9 pots 3 streets,then so is T9,Q9,K9,A9,98,97.He could also do this with 2nd and even 3rd pair (happened to me yesterday).

      I call the river all day.If I do fold,I'll hate myself for it and not sleep at night.
    • jonnyjm
      jonnyjm
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.03.2008 Posts: 447
      Y u no raise flop!?
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      Originally posted by Tomaloc
      people do random things on the flop, but the turn is usually serious business
      also do you feel comfortable with an overpair after being c/r'd on a dry turn?
      How can you say turn is serious business if you JUST saw him pot with J9?

      Ofc you won't feel comfortable vs. a c/r with an overpair. I would fold in that spot.Thing is,in case you haven't noticed,he doesn't c/r here,he pots.
    • Ectoz
      Ectoz
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.04.2010 Posts: 135
      A raise on the flop definitely has it's merits.
    • metza
      metza
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.01.2012 Posts: 2,220
      Originally posted by Ectoz
      You are totally right,I don't think he plays a set like that either,people saying "if he plays TP like that ofc he plays a set the same way",are totally wrong. Rec players have a notion of absolute hand strength and they certainly play them differently,otherwise they would be balanced in most spots,which would stop them from being rec players.

      Imo,the hand is played correctly vs. his line. If J9 pots 3 streets,then so is T9,Q9,K9,A9,98,97.He could also do this with 2nd and even 3rd pair (happened to me yesterday).

      I call the river all day.If I do fold,I'll hate myself for it and not sleep at night.
      No. River call is the real mistake here IMO. If he is shoving the river Jack, he never has A9 etc. and you're just not expecting to be ahead.

      Lazza61's analysis is spot on, so many players in the micros play two overcards exactly the same way as you played your QQ. So given this, he's probably check/calling OR check/folding the river if it does not improve his hand. Check call for a low card and check fold for a high card river. The fact that he is shoving you without even getting any information from you should be sending off massive alarm bells. Up until now his bets are telling you he has AT LEAST a pair of nines made. Now the turn is no threat to the nines, but the Jack? Of course it is. He now is announcing he is not scared of the Jack.

      The information now suggests that he has overpair, two pair, straight or set, so it is a clear fold. Few people are going to pure-bluff an opponent who has called two overbets.

      Raising the flop is the way to go. If he flat-calls, you shove the turn (unless its an A or K) and if he shoves the turn, fold, expecting him to have you beat.

      Just because his play is not "standard" for a set does not mean he doesn't have one. As David Sklansky says, at the end of the day the most significant piece of information is the current bet size and he bets the river BIG. Sometimes playing a hand deceptively is the best way to make money, as a confused opponent is more likely to make mistakes.
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