[NL2-NL10] [SH NL10] QJs good flop

    • MoneyStef
      MoneyStef
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 1,501
      Villain to my left is 23/22, AF 0.8 on 70 hands. Villain in BU is fishy (calling station), but can't access his exact stats.

      Dream flop, but don't expect villains to bet so I bet to possibly pick up the pot and I'm in good shape if somebody calls and can re raise if somebody raises.

      Turn gives me TP, good kicker, so I bet again. River I do a thin value bet/block bet.

      Comments? What do I bet if I hit my straight or flush on the river?

      Thanks in advance.


      Grabbed by Holdem Manager
      NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
      SB ($8.85)
      Hero ($10)
      UTG ($13.96)
      UTG+1 ($4.37)
      CO ($24.24)
      BTN ($7.37)

      Dealt to Hero Q:club: J:club:

      UTG raises to $0.27, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.27, fold, Hero calls $0.17

      FLOP ($0.86) T:diamond: 3:club: 8:club:

      Hero bets $0.60, UTG calls $0.60, BTN folds

      TURN ($2.06) T:diamond: 3:club: 8:club: J:heart:

      Hero bets $1.20, UTG calls $1.20

      RIVER ($4.46) T:diamond: 3:club: 8:club: J:heart: 8:heart:

      Hero bets $1.10, UTG calls $1.10
  • 10 replies
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello MoneyStef,

      Seems to be fine, although I would still Bet the turn a bit bigger. :) So you wont look your hand super-weak.

      Best Regards.
    • MoneyStef
      MoneyStef
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 1,501
      Hi Veriz,

      Thanks for your reply on this hand and all the other hands as well actually, I really appreciate your high quality feedback.

      However still a question regarding this reply: what bet amount would you suggest for the turn? Or do you mean the river?
    • Ickki
      Ickki
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2010 Posts: 962
      Originally posted by MoneyStef
      However still a question regarding this reply: what bet amount would you suggest for the turn? Or do you mean the river?
      I would bet 2/3 to 3/4 pot on the turn. 1.5 is fine.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by MoneyStef
      Hi Veriz,

      Thanks for your reply on this hand and all the other hands as well actually, I really appreciate your high quality feedback.

      However still a question regarding this reply: what bet amount would you suggest for the turn? Or do you mean the river?
      Yes, something like 2/3-3/4 as Ickki pointed out. You can read some articles about it. :) There are enough of them.
    • MoneyStef
      MoneyStef
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 1,501
      Hi,

      I'm affraid I still don't get it :f_confused: .

      I bet to protect against float-bluffs (will fold equally against a 60% as to a 75% bet), for value against overcards, Tx (I think 8x will fold irrespective of the amount I bet) and FDs. I'm behind against slowplayed sets, or JJ that just made a set, and a lost QQ, but I still have equity.

      Why would I want to look strong on the turn? This makes villain fold a bigger part of his range from which we could extract value. + I don't really see why a 60% bet would make us look super-weak. If we bet more, we have the disadvantage that if we're behind, were just losing more, and I actually don't see an advantage to betting more.

      Can you please explain were I go wrong in my reasonning? I don't know of articles explaining this situation (I read the article "how to play strong draws", but did not encounter it).

      Sorry for the many replies on this hand, but as I seem to be missing something that is obvious, I would like to understand your feedback better.
    • Ickki
      Ickki
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2010 Posts: 962
      Originally posted by MoneyStef
      Hi,

      I'm affraid I still don't get it :f_confused: .

      I bet to protect against float-bluffs (will fold equally against a 60% as to a 75% bet), for value against overcards, Tx (I think 8x will fold irrespective of the amount I bet) and FDs. I'm behind against slowplayed sets, or JJ that just made a set, and a lost QQ, but I still have equity.

      Why would I want to look strong on the turn? This makes villain fold a bigger part of his range from which we could extract value. + I don't really see why a 60% bet would make us look super-weak. If we bet more, we have the disadvantage that if we're behind, were just losing more, and I actually don't see an advantage to betting more.

      Can you please explain were I go wrong in my reasonning? I don't know of articles explaining this situation (I read the article "how to play strong draws", but did not encounter it).

      Sorry for the many replies on this hand, but as I seem to be missing something that is obvious, I would like to understand your feedback better.
      Betting 3/4 on the turn will give you more value for the hand you have. This is the reason you bet in micro stakes. Coincidentally, you also give villain worse odds to call with his draws and fold him out more often, though at these stakes opponents will probably not take too much notice of your bet sizing so you should just try to milk them as much as possible. Therefore a standard bet of 3/4 pot is better.
    • MoneyStef
      MoneyStef
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 1,501
      Originally posted by Ickki
      Betting 3/4 on the turn will give you more value for the hand you have. This is the reason you bet in micro stakes.
      Can you explain me what you see in the range of this 23/22 player, and which part of his range we are getting value from? Thanks
    • Ickki
      Ickki
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.11.2010 Posts: 962
      Originally posted by MoneyStef
      Originally posted by Ickki
      Betting 3/4 on the turn will give you more value for the hand you have. This is the reason you bet in micro stakes.
      Can you explain me what you see in the range of this 23/22 player, and which part of his range we are getting value from? Thanks
      You're getting value from straight draws, flush draws, TPWK imo.
    • MoneyStef
      MoneyStef
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.01.2011 Posts: 1,501
      Hi,

      Thanks for your reply!

      Don't want to make endless replies myself, but this is how I see it:

      TPWK
      TPWK seems (very) unlikely.This would be J9, because JT and J8 are beating us. A 23/22 player does not call a raise that much with J9 imo.

      Straight draws
      Maybe a 99 straight draw could be in his range, but would he really call a big bet with only 6 clean outs? KQ probably is in his range, and will probably call irrespective of bet size.

      Flush draws
      Suited connectors and A-x s is a bit unlikely given his stats, but we cannot totally exclude it. The 8 on the board and my jack block some of the most likely suited connectors. And even then, not clear if he would call a 75% bet with this.

      ==> I think that the only realistic hands we are getting value from are KQ and maybe 99 and less likely flush draws.

      You can of course tell me where you disagree :) . Thanks in any case for the helpfull discussion.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Why would I want to look strong on the turn? This makes villain fold a bigger part of his range from which we could extract value. + I don't really see why a 60% bet would make us look super-weak. If we bet more, we have the disadvantage that if we're behind, were just losing more, and I actually don't see an advantage to betting more.

      And why would you want to Bet it small? To make look your hand weak and make it look like a draw? Which may get raised, especially if the guy has something like 2pairs or whatsoever against we have to just Bet/Fold it. Vs bigger bet he wouldn't try to raise that often. Also there are tons of worse hands which Call us, pairs/draws/PPs.

      Can you please explain were I go wrong in my reasonning? I don't know of articles explaining this situation (I read the article "how to play strong draws", but did not encounter it).

      Obviously you can't find articles exactly in that situation, you might find similar ones but you can't find everything related to poker be exactly as we have it. What I meant is read articles about bet sizing.