Draw in position

    • M0na1isa
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 133
      Consider you and the villain both have 50BBs. Villain is not a fish. You're in position. Villan open bet 3 BBs. You flat called with suited connectors. You pick a massive draw on the flop. Something like top pair and flush draw. Or flush +open ended. Villan bets half the pot. Something like 5BB.

      A) Min raise him.

      B) Call and see the turn.

      I believe against a good player min raising here would have more benefits. Usually he won't 4bet you on the flop. He either has to be a fish and be in love with his hand, or a very good player and picks up on what you're doing. But avg to good players will just call your raise. Even if he decides to 4bet you, 5bet shove is not out of the picture, you'll be still having good odds I guess or even FE in some cases.

      Now on the turn, you'd usually get a check. So if you haven't made your hand you can see the river for free. Which is quite cheaper than just calling the flop.

      flat calling : 5bb on the flop, usually villain bets 50-60% on the turn which will be somewhere around 12bb = 17bb.

      But with min raising you have risked 7bb less.

      If you make your flush or straight on the river, and just kept flat calling, and board become so scary usually you cannot get much out of your opponent, better to go for a value bet.

      But when you min raise on the flop, if made the hand on the turn can keep on betting on turn and river and usually will get a call.

      If checked on the turn and made hand on the river, many times villain bets on the river even though you have made your hand. Even if he checks you can make a bluff like bet and considering checking the turn most of times get a call.

      Inputs on my thought process please.
  • 6 replies
    • sileekhunt
      Joined: 09.06.2010 Posts: 286
      Ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by minraising the flop.

      Do you want to pick up the pot there & then?

      Do you want villain to call & build up the pot?

      Do you want to get allin on the flop?

      Will you fold if villain shoves/ repops?

      Does villain go to showdown much?

      Does he fold on the turn alot?

      etc etc.

      Unless villain has something super strong you prolly are not gonna get paid off on the rivered flush if you x the turn so I don't think I agree with you there.

      If you x/r flop a bit bigger you can rep that you are protecting a set from a flush draw aswell. This is opponent specific I guess but firing the turn after x/r flop looks super strong, just need to do it vs somebody who can fold.

      I prolly would not fold to a minraise on the flop....it just gives good odds to call & see a turn.
    • M0na1isa
      Joined: 05.02.2012 Posts: 133
      Hmm I think my explanation could not rise those questions, answers are already in the thought. But here goes the answers:

      - Picking up the pot is not the original plan. But it happens from time to time when villain has completely missed.

      - No. Plan is to induce a check from the villain on the turn and see a cheaper river, or take control of the pot and bet on every street (if hand is made on the turn).

      - As I have said no, but in case of 4bet is not out of the picture.

      - Already explained.

      - Him going to showdown would not alter the scenario.

      - I'm checking out the turn if I don't make my hand so he cannot fold technically, or even if he folds if I make my hand i have still got the most out of him but raising him on the flop.
    • Wohmfg
      Joined: 12.11.2009 Posts: 500
      He's more likely to be checking to you on the turn after your minraise, than betting the turn (with his 2 pairs and sets maybe, which he would probably 3bet on the flop anyway). We want the action to be on the flop if there is going to be any as more often than not the turn will not help us. So I like a minraise to try and get a free river card if the turn bricks, and if we hit we can keep betting and our made hand will be slightly disguised.
    • FlashDavin
      Joined: 25.10.2011 Posts: 421
      Isn't this already called a freeze play?

      Min raise flop cbet to see cheap turn + river cards?
    • Asaban
      Joined: 22.09.2006 Posts: 8,222
      In the specific situation you are talking about a monster draw with massive outs. Most of the times you will be in front on the flop against your opponents' range. Therefore you should raise for value and even try to bring it in on the flop. I would normally raise ~3 times his bet (maybe a bit less) and broke against any further action. If your massive draw doesn't hit the turn you can either check behind for a free river or even push your stack due to the good odds and fold equity (most of the times you will still have around 30% equity).

    • amanofhisword
      Joined: 10.03.2013 Posts: 41
      hi M0nalisa,

      I like your thought process...
      by min raising you are also giving him a chance to play back at you but alot of solid players read min raising as very strong.

      I do like the min raise but I think a bigger raise would be better like 3.5 times his bet amount. in this case he may read your raise as JJ on 3 low cards board and reraise a bigger pair which you should be delighted to see if your draw is as strong as you described. lets say he does have over pair and just flat calls to see what you would do on the turn maybe scared of a set.
      Regardless, your play is good but in my opinion a min raise often looks super strong and a solid player would fold an over pair some of the time.

      good luck at the tables