[NL20-NL50] [Fr] Nl25 44 28.07.

    • HansTheGreat
      HansTheGreat
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.02.2010 Posts: 3,808
      UTG+1: $11.63
      MP: $25.35
      CO: $8.30
      BTN: $105.34
      SB: $9.75
      Hero (BB): $60.25
      UTG: $7.16

      Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 4 :club: 4 :diamond:
      1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, 2 folds, SB calls $0.65, Hero calls $0.50

      Flop: ($3.00) K :diamond: 4 :heart: 8 :diamond: (4 players)
      SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $2.00, MP calls $2, SB folds, Hero raises to $9.50, UTG+1 folds, MP calls $7.50

      Turn: ($24.00) 9 :heart: (2 players)
      Hero bets $17.10, MP calls $15.10 all in

      River: ($54.20) Q :heart: (2 players - 1 is all in)



      Overplayed?
      Leading out better the X/R?
  • 21 replies
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      seriously , it depends. Both options are fine but it depends alot on the other villain involved. If he is a reg i like chek calling the flop , underrepping my hand and hopefully see a brick turn and then CR the turn . it depends on what range you assign the guy that opened. Don't fall in the ' zomg UTG opens he must have a big hand cbetting a K hi flop' It depends on how wide his range is from UTG. He can definately have other hands as well like TT-QQ for example which are all folding to ur CR and the other guy calling could well be on a Kx type of hand or a FD.

      so basically , it depends ?(
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello Sikac,

      Check/Calling is obviously the worst option you could pick. :D It's a Check/Raise or donk out yourself, no way a Check/Call, we need to protect. I like your play and I would have played the same way. Nice hand!

      Best Regards.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      Again i disagree , I'm sorry Veriz but alot of your recommendations sound formulaic. If a check call is bad then you should state a good reason why. A CR on the flop looks insanely strong in this spot. The pot will be big enuf with 2 players who did put money on the flop already. Omg watch out a flushdraw...

      youre no way a check/call commente doesn't make sense . you simply ignore flopranges and act like every time you flop a set in a 3 way pot you should shovel money in asap with no actual thought process behind it.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      Again i disagree , I'm sorry Veriz but alot of your recommendations sound formulaic. If a check call is bad then you should state a good reason why. A CR on the flop looks insanely strong in this spot. The pot will be big enuf with 2 players who did put money on the flop already. Omg watch out a flushdraw...

      youre no way a check/call commente doesn't make sense . you simply ignore flopranges and act like every time you flop a set in a 3 way pot you should shovel money in asap with no actual thought process behind it.
      You have to be bad in poker if you don't even understand that such a board is draw-heavy and against draw-heavy boards what do we do? We protect our hand.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      Wauw. Just wauw . Yeah this board is so draw heavy. You are giving away 17% equity away for letting them draw to a flushdraw which is about the only draw which would be troublesome. And you have a redraw as well. Strong solid comment. Again no ranges assigned and you just troll people who take the effort to actually provide thought to different lines hero can consider in relation to both opponents hand ranges.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      Wauw. Just wauw . Yeah this board is so draw heavy. You are giving away 17% equity away for letting them draw to a flushdraw which is about the only draw which would be troublesome. And you have a redraw as well. Strong solid comment. Again no ranges assigned and you just troll people who take the effort to actually provide thought to different lines hero can consider in relation to both opponents hand ranges.
      Yep, I don't have anything else to do here than troll your comments. Be realistic man, do you really think I don't have anything better to do?
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      you started all the BS by basically saying i suck at poker while in most comment i have given long expanded thought processes. Then you take the ' let's have sympathy with the hand judge' line.

      Well played sir.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      you started all the BS by basically saying i suck at poker while in most comment i have given long expanded thought processes. Then you take the ' let's have sympathy with the hand judge' line.

      Well played sir.
      If you felt this way then I am sorry, but not understanding this basic thing after you posting such comments about the game makes me think this way. Very basic steps in poker are understanding the board, vs drawy board we don't want to give opponents good odds but rather protect our hand.

      Why would I even need to start some BS? I am just adding extra work for myself... blaming always everyone else than yourself.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      First of all . It's all good let's be friends. I just don't like being run over but i understand why you said it looking at it from your limited perspective though it's not really productive and irrellevant for the OP. Secondly protecting your hand is far less important for a player who has an edge on the other players so that's simply not true. And no it's not because i take a tricky line that i don't understand why you would bet to protect.All i was claiming was that it's not necessarily the optimal line and i gave good arguments why. You can agree to disagree but it doesn't mean i'm bad at poker because i ALWAYS give reasons why to make a certain play and there is thought process involved.

      It's not because a STD play is EV+ that deviating lines can't be more EV+. By check calling the flop you look weakish and if the turn blanks and you check and then face a bet and a call it is an awsome spot. Even if it goes bet, fold and you are to act . The pot is already big enough by this point. While by CR the flop you are forcing both players to have a really strong range to continue. ( unless one of em is a big fish and is always calling toppair/draws). Then obv the flopline you took is great.

      In this case i would consider check /calling since you are going to either donk the turn or check Raise it ( both would be fine imo) . You are only letting them draw to a flush for one street , you have a redraw. You are not giving a free cards since there was always a bet and a call so the draws are already ' priced'. Secondly you are giving weaker ranges the opportunity to get more money in on the turn.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      If you are donking the turn then rather just do it right on the flop as I have said couple of times already. :) Check/Calling is just the worst line you could pick, at least with donking you pick up the sizing yourself and also protect our hand. Avoid Check behinds. He ain't CBetting into 4way pot without having a hand, whatever else Calls you anyways.

      Meanwhile the Check/Raise on the turn will be on of the worst moves, cause your hand is super easy to read, you will never do that in multiway pot with air nor draws. Also a lot of cards would just scare them away. Which means Check/Raise flop > Check/Raise turn. If we going for a Check/Call line then we should also either donk the turn or Check/Call the turn again and then reevaluate the river and most likely Check/Raise there.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      nice agree to disagree. I understand VEriz donking the flop recommendation but again what hands are you targeting? Exactly Kx and the few flushdraws. Veriz categorises this as a wet flop which is simply false. It's a King high flop 2 tone and disconnected. That's hardly a wet flop. Secondly checking this flop is not a disaster because it's a pretty dry board and we expect alot of cbets here. Worst what can happen is the flop gets checked through which won't nearly happen enough to call this a bad play. In which case you donk the turn. Problem solved.

      if you look at the range of hands opened from EP a K hi doesn't ' crush' his range. He can represent it yes. It doesn't ' hit it superhard however. By CR the flop you are not letting him continue with any other hands besides a king or a decent flushdraw. that's pretty slim.

      Looking at the action you could assume the following. EP raiser cbets his entire range from EP on this flop and guy behind calls with KX, and flushdraws. What are you so worried about anyways? A 1 street flushdraw we are not charging? so basically that's your reason for letting people make big folds with AK, AA. A 17% equity slice which faces a redraw...

      AK AA will definately lead the turn again for the obvious value those hands have. Nobody is ever checking AK or AA there. It will usually be a bet/fold or a bet/call spot for them. And yes it's a narrow range for him to fire the turn. And that's just great because he did and we don't need to protect against anything on the flop but a flushdraw and we happily give the EP opener the chance to feel comfortable about his top pair hands and AA. Even a check/call on the turn wouldn't be bad , simply because we have a massive equity edge on the turn going to the river. EP opener may now stack off on blank rivers and make the herocall with AK AA facing our donkbet. the turncard is awsome because it brings a double flushdraw. If EP opened with a hand that Cbets this dry flop with little or no equity he might have turned a flushdraw and that would be great for obvious reasons.

      Meaning A check raise on the turn looks superstrong . SO WHAT? they are either going with their hand considering the potsize or they are not. Check raising the flop looks just as strong imo and i'd dump AK , AA here in a heartbeat. difference is the pot is bloated by the turn making it harder for villains to fold. checkraising the turn would be my play on this turncard because agreed the board is getting more connected and tricky. chechk calling would put us in a potentially more complicated spot on the river if the action would go chechk bet call call. So what? Just imagine one of em having TPTK or AA and the other guy in the middle having a flushdraw. ur getting the most monies here. And yes it's more complicated and dangerous to check call flop and turn but it's likely the most EV+ way

      Check raising the turn is without a doubt the best play if you compare it to a CR on the flop. If the flop went : bet call call. because if the turn goes bet/call . You can see your EV is basically exploding because of the extra money involved fromt he guy squeezed int he middle. you can then opt to raise the turn which is nice cuz if the action went check bet call the pot is likely to be massive already. If you check EP bets and MP folds you could opt to just call. and let him continue betting on the river. you can donkshove all in on the river as well. plenty of options to maximize your EV vs the EP range.

      Protection raises are an excuse to dodge difficult spots and avoid tough decisions. However they don't maximise the EV of your hand at all vs a semi -decent player


      I do understand that slowplaying sets isn't a standard play. duuh microstakes , however Veriz simply cancels it out as an option when the range of the villains in relation with the flop texture is very suitable for it.



      I rest my case.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      I will just skip to comment your thoughts because it's really pointless. You wont stop arguing. Just read your text again yourself and you will recognize that it's not really a great play you picking.

      "That's hardly a wet flop" ; "because it's a pretty dry board"

      Amazing...
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      Wauw little crybaby , are you digging through my posts to find a few words to use against me? nice troll. grow the f up and go back to being a good boy and actually helping out people instead of getting into dick waving contests and acting like a stuck up twat with an arrogant attitude. Sure thing your awsome at this game that's why you give hand advises for the micro's. Hey i don't claim i'm nearly as good as you but then again i'm not a hand judge and i don't have to be.


      Anyways Post a Kd8d2h flop on any forum and ask whether one qualifies it as a dry or a wet flop. Furthermore It's pretty freaking obvious since i explained the flop was just K hi with a flushdraw and did i mention it was DISCONNECTED you drooling moron. You sir can't take any form of criticism , which was never even directed at you but you fail so hard in life you feel attacked. your loss

      If you think that Kd8d2h is a wet board then please enlighten us WHY.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      you are the worst hand judge in PS history after posting that last comment int his thread. ' stop arguing' LOL WHAT. I was discussing the freaking hand if that doesn't fit into the way you think the hand should be played then shrug your shoulders and tell the OP why you think it's not good/bad but i think we both know you fail hard at actually typing more than 2 sentences on a hand history.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      here's a defination bitch ' It's a King high flop 2 tone and disconnected' . nitpicking prick
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      Originally posted by veriz
      I will just skip to comment your thoughts because it's really pointless. You wont stop arguing. Just read your text again yourself and you will recognize that it's not really a great play you picking.

      "That's hardly a wet flop" ; "because it's a pretty dry board"

      Amazing...
      you dumb fuck i clearly gave the definition of what a dry flop is. you simply edit words to make me look silly. Lol i find you funny. You are great at pissing people off it just shows how bad you are at your job as a hand judge because you get all personal.

      see a shrink , cry a bit, might be a relief
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      now please ban me from the hand posting forums cuz you are quite frankly an annoying and lifetilting sob. mission accomplished troll. I wasted real lifetime on internetdrama. At least i created another internethero.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      Wauw little crybaby
      You clearly can see yourself that you ain't really discussing but rather acting not in a proper manner. Yes, I might be good cutting out things from your posts but it also has a reason, so you wont edit the post in the future and wont say that you didn't do post that, as which you did with couple of your posts.

      What's the problem in giving advice to micro's? And by the way the limits between NL20-NL50 ain't called micro's but they are called low stakes.

      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      Anyways Post a Kd8d2h flop
      Clearly proves that you didn't even take a look at the board, cause we don't really have such a board.

      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      you are the worst hand judge in PS history after posting that last comment int his thread. ' stop arguing' LOL WHAT. I was discussing the freaking hand if that doesn't fit into the way you think the hand should be played then shrug your shoulders and tell the OP why you think it's not good/bad but i think we both know you fail hard at actually typing more than 2 sentences on a hand history.
      Got also better in cutting out words, I clearly said that seemed to be that you wont stop arguing with me and I wont have any chance to change your mind. ;)

      Good to also have negative feedback, at least I will know in what I can improve myself.

      But about me not writing why it's bad it's rather you not reading my evaluations, I clearly wrote why it's bad and why it's good. Gonna re-post it for you:
      Originally posted by veriz
      If you are donking the turn then rather just do it right on the flop as I have said couple of times already. :) Check/Calling is just the worst line you could pick, at least with donking you pick up the sizing yourself and also protect our hand. Avoid Check behinds. He ain't CBetting into 4way pot without having a hand, whatever else Calls you anyways.

      Meanwhile the Check/Raise on the turn will be on of the worst moves, cause your hand is super easy to read, you will never do that in multiway pot with air nor draws. Also a lot of cards would just scare them away. Which means Check/Raise flop > Check/Raise turn. If we going for a Check/Call line then we should also either donk the turn or Check/Call the turn again and then reevaluate the river and most likely Check/Raise there.
      Also you will find more arguments above.

      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      here's a defination bitch ' It's a King high flop 2 tone and disconnected' . nitpicking prick
      Hopefully you going to realize that the board you wrote isn't really correct. :)

      Originally posted by fortunewheel
      you dumb fuck i clearly gave the definition of what a dry flop is. you simply edit words to make me look silly. Lol i find you funny. You are great at pissing people off it just shows how bad you are at your job as a hand judge because you get all personal.

      see a shrink , cry a bit, might be a relief
      You are going over the line. At least pick your words, if you have anything to say to me contact me via my email and we can use this kind of words there. Forum clearly isn't the place for such language.
    • fortunewheel
      fortunewheel
      Silver
      Joined: 16.09.2008 Posts: 309
      haha funny kid. All of a sudden playing the ' i'm so mature card'.

      pathetic how you've done nothing but replying to every single one of my comments in an arrogant provocative way whenever i doubted one of the plays you suggested. In this whole trolling war it doesn't really matter what i have said/done. I'm not the hand judge , i'm not the one who should know better than to post provocative and arrogant comments.

      And no i won't go on a date with you , forget about my email.

      Even funnier every time i told you this is getting out of hand you could never really just keep your mouth shut didn't you? You went looking for more reasons to be the moral winner of a trolling war you should never have started being a PS service member. And even if you didn't start it you should have A) ignored me B) not throw oil on the fire.

      No matter how you look at it you failed as a hand judge and probably embarassed PS because you just can't respond in a normal way when people suggest your plays are not optimal. Whether that's right or wrong isn't even relevant. That's what makes you such a noobish egotistical hand judge.

      This will be my last act in this troll episode. You can claim victory if you want :D
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