live grinding tour

    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      hey guys,

      As maby some of you know, i am on a 15 day live grinding tour in Australia. I landed two days ago in Melbourne and started my first session yesterday afternoon in the crown casino.

      I played for 11 hours straight at the 1/2 tables. I won 1 buy in, but i wasn t happy about my play at all !!!

      During the entire time i played i seated at 2 tables with very different dynamics. So i am going to talk about these two because i had a lot of problems handeling the differences between live and online.

      First table: I started at 6 pm at a 1/2 table where evrybody was a donk. Evrybody limped in all the time, they all called evry preflop raise and played super poor postflop. + 5 players were shortstacked, they had 25 big blinds and 2 players had 50 big blinds. At crown casino 1/2 max buy in is 75 big blinds.

      Normalley online i play a TAGish style, but i made some big adjustments; i opened up my range a lot, i was playing a ton of hands...But i could help it to play passive...If i had a good draw OTF i raised IP but evrybody called my all the time..And then they would donkbet the turn.

      I had to add 25 big blinds to my stack 3 times cause if i would hit my draw they would stack off, but i never did hit it so...

      second table; At 2:30 the table broke up and i had to change... we were playing 7 handed, evrybody deepstack( at least 250bb). As you can guess, all the bad players lost there money against the better players who where still left. I had a good feeling about the table except for one certain player.

      Evrybody who played live probably has ever met one of these guys. He was an older regular who used to play 2/5, but changed limits for a certain reason. He played SUPER aggressive...playing 90 procent of his hand, he would never fold against 3bets , he would often barrel 3 streets and he always seem to have a hand.

      I had a ton of problems playing agaisnt this guy. i won half his stack in one hand so he was left with 100bb...But after 2h he had 500bb...

      I hated playing against the guy...at 5 am the table broke up and they we got seperated at different tables. The guy stood up and immediatly asked what table i was going to play on. I felt disgusted....I felt like the biggest fish ever.

      Can anybody give me some advice about playing against such a maniac???


      Big mistakes i noticed after playing:

      table 1:
      -Playing to passive postflop(the problem is, if i raise with my draw evrybody calls me anyway and i don t want to raise my TPTK cause i dont want worse hands to fold. I probably should raise my TPTK cause the call anything OTF anyway...what do you think about this???)

      table 2:
      - calling to many 3bets with weak hands. i find it very hard to fold vs a min 3bet IP. Even with crap (K8s)
      - Calling in inflated pots
      ex;
      EP raises 7bb, Mp calls, CO calls, BU:hero AJo calls
      flop: A76r
      Ep leads 1/2 pot, MP min raises, CO folds, HERO calls.
      while i know this should be a fold, i still do stupid things like that.

      -calling to many minraises OTF and OTT

      thx, any advice is welcome
  • 13 replies
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      i will be posting after evry session


      thx guys
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      DAY 2

      Like day 1 there were 2 different table dynamics.

      Table 1:
      From 6pm-12pm: evrybody plays loose passive. They limp preflop with AA, KK, AK, QQ.....When they do have QQ, they will check all the way because a K came OTF. But they will call all the way, cause they say :' i have second pair, has to be good enough'

      Evrybody says: Make a plan before the hand even starts.
      - what handrange does villain have?
      - What hands does he call OTF?
      -...

      But what do you do if they play evrything, call evrything....

      Ex: nlhe 1/2, 7handed.

      4 players limp.
      Hero: BU raises to 10bb (AA)
      4 players call.

      Flop: 46j r

      checked to hero
      Hero: bets 1/2 pot
      UTG: Minraises
      Evrybody folds, Hero folds.

      UTG shows 6j s

      I like to play a tagisch sty
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      DAY 2

      Like day 1 there were 2 different table dynamics.

      Table 1:
      From 6pm-12pm: evrybody plays loose passive. They limp preflop with AA, KK, AK, QQ.....When they do have QQ, they will check all the way because a K came OTF. But they will call all the way, cause they say :' i have second pair, has to be good enough'

      Evrybody says: Make a plan before the hand even starts.
      - what handrange does villain have?
      - What hands does he call OTF?
      -...

      But what do you do if they play evrything, call evrything....

      Ex: nlhe 1/2, 7handed.

      4 players limp.
      Hero: BU raises to 10bb (AA)
      4 players call.

      Flop: 46j r

      checked to hero
      Hero: bets 1/2 pot
      UTG: Minraises
      Evrybody folds, Hero folds.

      UTG shows 6j s

      I like to play a tagisch style. Raise with my premium hands ( AK,AQ, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, kQ, A10). Cause i know my hands dominate them so hard.

      But its hard to play AKo postflop when they all call and the board comes : 3(c) 7(h) 8(h).
      I can't cbet on this board cause they play anything and will call anything.

      They never raise flush draws or straight draws. Rarely they will raise an OESFD( open ended straight flush draw). And when they do raise ( they always minraise) they will have 2pair or something like that.

      But it sucks when you are playing, waiting for 1h to finally get a premium hand. Raise preflop, get called by 6 players, hit TPTK on the flop and get minraised by the most passive player of them all.

      What should i do???

      -should i stop raising and just limp more hands? even hands that don't look good to me Q3(h) IP?
      Should i play super loose?
      - Maybe i am just scared money? It's hard to bet ( or raise) into 6 players with a flushdraw, knowing that they are going to call anyway.

      table 2: 12- 2u30 am

      This time there were 4 loose passive and 3 maniacs. They raise evrything from evry position, seem to know eachother quite well. And annoye me, yell like : 'in your face', 'got one from you back ' when they suck out.

      i just stacked off and have 30 bb left.
      Hero UTG: QQ, limp (with the intention of 3betting the raise of the maniac)
      UTG, UTG+1, MP, CO, BU, SB limp
      BB: raises to 8 BB
      Hero UTG: AI
      UTG+1: call
      MP,CO,BU fold
      SB: call
      BB: 4bet to 80bb
      UTG +1:call AI
      SB:call AI

      UTG+1: shows A10s
      SB: shows 79o
      BB: shows k10o

      SB: sucks out and hits a straight

      Maybe this is just a pathetic hand to post and maybe i am having pitty towards myself....But this ain't normal or is it?

      I feel so frustrated. I think of myself as a decent player. But the result won't come. There was a guy who played 2/3 25 hours straight. He left the casino with 30BI (9k). What is he doing so different then what i am doing?

      Online i would kill them all, but they don' t play online. We are playing live.
      How do i kill them live?

      Lost 3 BI
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I think you are somewhat feeling pity for yourself, but I can understand why.

      In the last hand you had a plan, and it worked to perfection. You limped your monster, and were able to get all your money in preflop, with by far the best hand.

      As you hoped, much weaker hands called you, but unfortunately too many of them. That means your equity is reduced somewhat, but the situation is still extremely profitable for you.

      I ran the equities of the hands you posted and they are as follows.

      QQ 41%
      ATs 27%
      KTo 18%
      79o 14%

      I have rounded them so that ties and fractions aren't counted, but even so, you have to consider it this way. With only 30BB, you put 25% into the effective pot you were playing for, with 41% equity, and that is a huge win. Your return on equity is 49.2BB, which means by just playing the hand, you profited by 20BB almost.

      Take note that you will lose this showdown MORE THAN HALF THE TIME! I don't expect that it will feel good. Not ever. However, if you walk away from this wondering how you can do it differently, or what went wrong, then you really are not understanding the situation that you were in.

      Remember, the guy who won the hand, put ALL his chips in with only 14% equity. He has no idea how much he lost. And the reason he doesn't know is because he won the showdown. So obviously, he won, didn't he? Do everything you can to help him think so.

      So in summing up, on the information as you presented it, I would say you had a plan, which you executed perfectly, and as a result of THAT ALONE, you made profit.

      Adjust your feelings according to that, and go out and keep doing it. Because to answer your question, yes, this is normal. You can expect this all the time. When you play like this, you are already killing them.
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      thx for the encouraging words...

      But i wasn't really talking about the hand itself nor the equity... I know i made the right play and idd shit happens....

      The thing i don't get, is how these people even play these hands....

      Do people in LLSNL always play this bad???

      Maybe i am levelling....

      I am going to study ' no limit holdem for advanced player' from david slansky.

      Maybe this will give me some more insight

      thx :)
    • aciddrop
      aciddrop
      Bronze
      Joined: 08.10.2006 Posts: 1,519
      I think the point that I was making is that most people, in live play or on line, play this badly. Since we are trying to profit from a game that relies on this very fact, we can only want it this way.

      There is no amount of study of poker material that will ever explain why people are self destructive. They not only do it in poker, this kind of decision making is their whole lives, so watch what people do, and choose where you get involved on the basis of that. This way you can avoid the messy situations that can cause you harm.

      But not in poker. Where these people want to sit down and invest money in guaranteed minus EV situations, hunger after sitting down beside them and reaping the harvest.

      For this reason we have a bankroll, and an understanding that this poker session began with the first hand we ever played, and won't end until we finally see our last flop, whenever that may be.

      Along the way, enjoy the fine tuning of yourself.
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      thx,


      that"s a beautiful description of mankind :p
    • ains21
      ains21
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 303
      Hey bouchapipe,

      Your tour sounds interesting, I'll be keeping an eye on the blog (would love to do this myself sometime). Where are you off to next?

      With all the guys limp/calling, there's nothing you can do really. Limping aint going to help because you're never going to know where you're at when they're just calling bets on the flop. You're playing well and I'm sure in the near future you'll be stacking them and will regain some confidence --- not a nice start to your tour though mate!

      GL and keep us updated.
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      Originally posted by ains21
      Hey bouchapipe,

      Your tour sounds interesting, I'll be keeping an eye on the blog (would love to do this myself sometime). Where are you off to next?

      With all the guys limp/calling, there's nothing you can do really. Limping aint going to help because you're never going to know where you're at when they're just calling bets on the flop. You're playing well and I'm sure in the near future you'll be stacking them and will regain some confidence --- not a nice start to your tour though mate!

      GL and keep us updated.
      Thx,

      I am staying another week in Melbourne. After that i am going to Sydney for one more week, and than back home.

      I didnt play today , cause i didn't feel good...i wanted to read some more posts and pick up my confidence...What you guys made happen :)

      thx for that
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      hey guys,

      Played another session in the crown last night...I was planning on playing a 12 hour session or something of that order, but got to tilted and left after 9 hours.

      In the beginning i played really well...I was carddead for about 2 hours but when i did get some cards, i would win some decent pots...I was paying a ton of attention, looking how evrybody responded after seeing their cards, looking how they reacted on the flop...betsizing...

      I was soulreading....got a couple of hands right 4 or 5 times...


      After 3 hours i was up a buy in...I Felt pretty good...Had a good feeling about the dynamics of the table....

      But then.... i got sucked out...the hand on itself doesn"t really mather, she had 2 outs and got there on the river...so i lost my additional buy in...i felt bad, but i knew i made the right play, so i got over it...

      1 hour later this hand came up:

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...n-otr-1229176/

      For those who don't want to guess...he had 66...And i pushed on the river, which he snap called...At the moment itself i thought i played the hand perfect, but i was playing the absolute handstrength of my hand, not the relative...After the support and advice of you guys, i realised that i could have played the hand much better. So i am actually happy that i played the hand bad...In that way i know i can improve a ton in that area...

      Then 2 orbits later this hand came up...

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-turn-1229183/

      He had a Ahigh flush...which i payed off... I know it seemed like an easy call, but i really tended to folding and i still think it was a bad call...

      So i was left with 20bb and felt pretty disgusted, so i left...

      What do you guys think about shortstacking?? Lets say you just stacked off and you have 20bb left...Do you leave or do you wait for somekind of hand and just push???

      What would be the bottom of your handrange to push with??

      -1BI
      thx for reading
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      sorry, posted the links in the wrong way....Still have to get a hang of it..

      these are the two hands that i tried to post above

      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/170/live-low-stakes-nl/handrange-villain-otr-1229176/



      http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/170/live-low-stakes-nl/facing-though-descision-turn-1229183/
    • bouchapipe
      bouchapipe
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.12.2009 Posts: 97
      hey,

      finished my 15 days of australia like 3 months ago.... but i was reading my own blog and i wanted to write a descent end to it.

      so the first couple of days i had a 1.8 K downswing: wich is a lot of money for me...due to bad beats, adjusting to playing live....

      then i took 2 days of

      Played for another 6 days and i had a 2.75 K upswing... still know a couple of hands, but only the biggest ones...

      i won my biggest pot ever: 1.8K 77 vs aks on 2x2h7x Jh...
      that was very exciting...


      But i still find it very hard to make the transition between live and online...So i ve quited playing live and i am only focussing on playing online...

      does this sound simular to anybody? I think players are just to bad and i am levelling to much...i dont know....
    • MonaiPlox
      MonaiPlox
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.10.2010 Posts: 1,048
      you played with calling stations and couldn't beat them? thats bad :D