600nl I cb and he goes barmy

    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Villain is 29/23/11 with 68% fold to steal from BB.
      He is known to be aggro, but don't have any specific reads on sizings etc.

      Kinda struggled with what = what here, does ace high always = a10 here in relative hand strength?

      Also whats the very worst hand we raise for value here, can we even have a value raising range? And similarly if we do can we ever have a bluffing range? (I assume not)

      edit: I included my hand as Ad and 10 blockers are obv pretty important.

      €3/€6 No Limit Holdem
      Prima
      4 Players
      Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

      Stacks:
      CO Player3 (€543) 91bb
      BTN pleno1 (€2,906.05) 484bb
      SB Player5 (€600) 100bb
      BB Player6 (€1,801.05) 300bb

      Pre-Flop: (€9, 4 players) pleno1 is BTN A T
      1 fold, pleno1 raises to €12, 1 fold, Player6 calls €6

      Flop: 3 Q T (€27, 2 players)
      Player6 checks, pleno1 checks

      Turn: T (€27, 2 players)
      Player6 bets €52, pleno1 calls €52

      River: 6 (€131, 2 players)
      Player6 bets €240, pleno1 calls €240
  • 22 replies
    • RAWFORCE
      RAWFORCE
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2012 Posts: 3
      yea with no overbet history/reads i call this as well. you are probably at the literal top hand in your range, you have the nf blocker, he should be good enough to know you have ~0 flushes. snapple it up and take a note either way.


      If somehow you have AdQx here then I think its a good spot to make a bluff. Definitely think he can have value hands he intends to b/f. I actually think it's close between call and bluff raise with this hand; the thing which swayed it to call for me is that he hasn't just overbet, he's made it almost 2x pot which imo polarizes him more than 1.2x pot.
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      I don't think we should turn anything into a bluff when we consider how polarised his range is.

      I would call with all my bluff catchers the first time round. This is mainly so I can develop reads on his turn/river overbets, if this guy is going to be a long term reg that I am going to battle with and then I can adjust accordingly.
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      His turn bet is really confusing. No idea what he wants to accomplish with that - most likely we're calling only with Tx, but c/r would make more sense if he goes for value. I really hate calling that river without any reads, but I guess that's the only way to get some :) I don't think it's good idea to turn this hand into a bluff if he's known to be aggro. He might even jam over our raise because we can't have the nuts and we can have only 1 combo with Ahi flush ... Also we should take his flop donkbet range into a consideration if he donks, ofc. Many people who do, would donk almost all strong hands and fds on this flop. I don't like value raising on this turn, I rather slowplay my Tx and raise the river, obv not vs overbet or flush cards.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      v nice betsize for value from villain. I actually doubt that he's bluffing here since it rly looks like hero has a Tx here a lot. But then again, i'm not folding this hand...
    • w34z3l
      w34z3l
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 03.08.2009 Posts: 13,297
      With no bet-sizing reads you are happy to give this guy credit for overbetting turn and river as a bluff? Not saying it's incorrect - but with no bet-sizing reads I'd assume he has value frequently enough that you can't really bluffcatch.

      Originally posted by pleno1
      Kinda struggled with what = what here, does ace high always = a10 here in relative hand strength?
      I don't think so. AT beats all of his bluffs while Ace-high doesn't. If he's aggressive he could be merging with a worse T.

      The advantage to calling is you get a read - plus if you think he could be merging you aren't purely bluff-catching. In reality I'm probably folding unless I'm gonna be playing a long session and really value the info-EV.

      Obviously I don't know the guy but it's hard to see him overbetting the turn with a FD anyway. Most likely scenario imo is he probably has a boat and sees value-town on a diamond river.
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      I think that a good percent of your perceived checking back range is going to be Tx so even though overbetting would permit villain to bluff a lot of the time unexploitably I think that he is not going to do it here (very nice betsizing with the nuts!).
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      i dont like not cbeting vs competent agro plr as u have a lot of options for further barelling, and also standing vs a c/r on F

      as played, snap and lose most of the time unless he is a total maniac, fold and throw ur game off for the rest of the session by making a weak fold.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Originally posted by TheLastNail

      as played, snap and lose most of the time
      :f_love:
    • thejuggernaut
      thejuggernaut
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2012 Posts: 7
      It think it's pretty criminal to not cbet this for value given how wide both of us are going to be here, and the fact that we have a hand we can easily call a c/r.


      As played, I think we need to call river here blocking the NF. We're likely quite a bit stronger than he thinks we are, and block the majority of value combos.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      This is obv a snap call, top of range, blocker etc etc.

      I would not turn Qx into a bluff, I don't expect him to fold anything that he vbets river with as he is just going to reason that we would cbet flop with FDs and 2pair/sets close to 100% of the time. I'm probably just snapping almost everything here tbh, he knows our range is super weak and still overbets, smells like a bluff to me! Unless of course villain is good and knows you are good as well obv.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      you only beat a few combos of k 10
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      And bluffs
    • Deliveranced
      Deliveranced
      Platinum
      Joined: 15.06.2012 Posts: 222
      pretty snap-worthy spot imo, although it sucks
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Originally posted by TheLastNail

      as played, snap and lose most of the time
      :f_love:
      some say poker imitates life in the decision making process..

      i think this is 1 great example of how both, ur kid and ur wife slipped off the cliff and are now barely hanging on to each of ur arms. No matter which 1 u let slip to save the other, 1 could mathematically classify is as -EV. However isnt it more abt choosing a decision which u re more likely to go on to accept?!

      i doubt a good plr will rly bluff into ur Tx heavy range on T&R. However if u just fold u ll never be completely sure and that might cost u more vs him in the future.. and in the end, as w the cliffstory, u must make a decision before u run out of time and let just the fate (timebank) decide :P That i think is the worst u can do thinking longertermwise.
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,024
      yea, and i like turning some Tx into bluff, but not in this exact runout and only vs a (very) good plr.

      fe if u have 8T on board and R comes A/K and not bringing the flush.
    • nefarious26
      nefarious26
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.11.2008 Posts: 413
      as said i cant see him having many bluffs here as the way you play this you have a ten often here plus you havnt much info on him then nor him on you,

      with the lack of history this is more valuetown than degen bluff imo
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Interesting hand. I think the problem with calling is that if he has only basic handreading skills its pretty obvious that we have some sort of Tx here. Its really hard for us to have anything else since we cb flop and then called the big turn overbet.

      So for us to call we need to expect him to try to bluff us off Tx. And given he is 2xing pot from his point of view the bluff has to work like 65% of the time? Not sure on the math but is he really expecting us to fold Tx so often?

      On the other hand he can easily valuebet any flush/boat this way since our range is capped to AT.

      I personally don't play that high where player pool is much smaller and calling for info and future EV is worth way more then on low stakes but in a vacuum i think folding is max EV.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Quick question,

      what do you think our turn calling range should look like?

      If it is super thin, then it creates the new topic of overbetting the turn vs missed cbet, I've been doing this alot and the regs all seem to just give up.

      Anybody else had such experiences?
    • getdotacom
      getdotacom
      Black
      Joined: 06.04.2008 Posts: 607
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Quick question,

      what do you think our turn calling range should look like?

      If it is super thin, then it creates the new topic of overbetting the turn vs missed cbet, I've been doing this alot and the regs all seem to just give up.

      Anybody else had such experiences?
      In vacuum we probably should call only with Tx vs that sizing.

      I don't like the idea of overbetting turn vs missed cbet. It's super easy to exploit that - just check back the nuts on flop :s_cool: I haven't tried this, but I tried some similar line some time ago - I open and flop comes like T97ss. I cbet, villain calls. Then I overbet blank turn. It worked for some time, but later they just started to slowplay any set vs me and that doesn't work anymore :(

      I think much better line would be to bet normal sizing on the turn and then overbet the river, which is pretty common.
    • 1
    • 2