2/4 bet-bet-bet

    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Platinum
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,088
      I was playing pretty nitty at the table with vpip under 20% and 3b 5-6%, i believe this was my second 3b from sb and second 3b vs this guy's steal in 100+ hands. There's no previous history between us, nor do i recall any big showdowns.

      Villain was playing 28/24 and his f23b was ~60%.


      I think this is a pretty std 3 barrel for me with this hand but I wonder if i'm perceived to be barreling this with AK&AQ as well. Which i believe has to be the case here, given the results.

      Thoughts?


      CO: $512.70 (128.2 bb)
      BTN: $332 (83 bb)
      Hero (SB): $552.80 (138.2 bb)
      BB: $1,241.10 (310.3 bb)
      UTG: $143.86 (36 bb)
      MP: $1,086.45 (271.6 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with Q K
      2 folds, CO raises to $10, BTN folds, Hero raises to $34, BB folds, CO calls $24

      Flop: ($72) 9 T T (2 players)
      Hero bets $42, CO calls $42

      Turn: ($156) 5 (2 players)
      Hero bets $94, CO calls $94

      River: ($344) 3 (2 players)
      Hero bets $382.80 and is all-in, CO calls $342.70 and is all-in

      Results:
      $1,029.40 pot ($3.00 rake)
      Final Board: 9 T T 5 3
      CO showed 4 4 and won $1,026.40 ($513.70 net)
      Hero showed Q K and lost (-$512.70 net)
  • 11 replies
    • TheLastNail
      TheLastNail
      Black
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 6,025
      the board is much better for the pf caller than u so betting rly w high freq (looks like ur style) big seems rly illogical w no dynamics. Therefore if i like any sizing it would be 1/3-1/2 on T&R to rep wider valuerange.

      But generally c/f T should be best, u get a free card from PPs or Ahighs reasonably often to realize ur equity and u can also bluff some R, like A.
    • thejuggernaut
      thejuggernaut
      Bronze
      Joined: 03.08.2012 Posts: 7
      Pretty much agree with everything above.


      Your line is likely better than betting turn and giving up, but c/f turn, realize equity sometimes, bluff some rivers is far superior.
    • lnternet
      lnternet
      Bronze
      Joined: 19.06.2012 Posts: 782
      Pre is fine. Flop is standard. You could mix in some flop check calls with this hand but I don't think that is necessary.

      Turn is more interesting. Typically you are going to have a lot of potential draws there: 87 J8 QJ fd, and then a lot of gutters KQ KJ 86 76 and maybe Q8 J7. Barreling all those draws, while probably not 2barreling 9x for value, makes your bluffing range too wide. If you ever 2barrel AJ-AK then that means you are pretty much 2barreling every single hand.

      Now your 3bet stat is very low, so Q8 J7, and probably 87 86 76 J8 aren't all that likely. Bluffing just the overcard+straight hands as well as flushdraws is fine. So I think if you are on a very wide range you can't barrel all your draws all the time. But with a tighter 3bet it seems fine to just bet turn with all of them.


      River everything misses. I don't know if you can jam AA-JJ for value. Some people will raise their Tx somewhere, in which case you can. Some will almost never raise this board with anything, and then going for a river jam for value is too thin.

      Let's assume you can't jam AA for value. Now your value range is extremely narrow, just a couple Tx and some 99, maybe 55. With such a narrow value range you have to give up most of your bluffs. So in that case you should give up KQ almost always.

      On the flip side, lets assume all JJ+ are easy value jams, and even A9 makes the cut. Then you have about 26 additional value combos, which will allow you to bluff an extra 13 combos with a pot sized jam. 76 86 87 are up to 12 already. QJ J8, KJ KQ, flushdraws.. it quickly adds up. I think even if you jam A9 for value on the river, you should shouldn't be bluffing with KQ all too often.



      In summary the hand is fine, but you need to watch your frequencies. You can't bluff very much on this river. With the results you now have the read that villain can do some really light bluffcatching, so it's probably fair to reduc your bluffing even below optimality in spots where it's easy to bluff too much.
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      Every time I read a Internet post



      Absolute boss of a post Internet. Spot on!
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      River bet seems really terrible. You are viewed as a nit and have bet around 60% of pot on flop and turn

      ...then you shove river for more than pot. Does it fit your profily to play JJ-AA like this? Does it fit your profile to play just about any valuehand like that? If I am your opponent, do I expect you to expect me to call any kind of 9x/etc here? Especially that there are trips and flushes out. No, i don't.

      When you play river like this, you rule out every single one pair hand, and you prob dont' even play Tx like this. I would call this with anything that beats K-high.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Rest has been covered pretty nicely already.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      river is a pot sized shove (effective) btw
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Yes, I know, it's slighty over pot. Still not what I would expect from a nit trying to extract " thin value" from a low PP/9x
    • CallumN
      CallumN
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.01.2012 Posts: 1,141
      What do you think our perceived value range is on the river?

      Switch our hand for JJ and what do we do otr? From IFS perspective we should be cramming since everyone gets their hero cape on? feels like its gonna be a cut a lot of the time.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Ye ye, I agree, I think 130bb stacks are actually really sexy to play as an aggressive player because of SPR throughout the streets in 3b pot.

      RE Internet: I think we can jam AA for value on river as villain won't be 4betting jj-kk vs us if we look like a huge nit, although agree think tis super close and wouldn't be going for "thin" value with JJ otr.
    • imfromsweden007
      imfromsweden007
      Bronze
      Joined: 11.10.2008 Posts: 726
      Originally posted by pleno1
      Ye ye, I agree, I think 130bb stacks are actually really sexy to play as an aggressive player because of SPR throughout the streets in 3b pot.

      RE Internet: I think we can jam AA for value on river as villain won't be 4betting jj-kk vs us if we look like a huge nit, although agree think tis super close and wouldn't be going for "thin" value with JJ otr.
      Didn't say everyone got their hero cape on, but I certinly would :f_frown: