Why do people talk so much crap about NL10?

    • asteele82
      asteele82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2012 Posts: 12
      I get really tired of reading BS info on the forums about NL5 / NL10. We're told to read as much as we can, with so called 'experienced players' giving their advise..

      I google search as much as I can, specific questions such as 'Skill difference between NL5 / NL10'. Typical responses are 'Both are full of fish that call raises with junk & stack off with K,J pre.'

      In my experience over the passed few weeks/months this is as far from the truth as possible. I posted one hand some time ago when I folded Q,Q pre to an all-in raise and call and was called a fish by everyone that responded, and that I should always get it in pre-flop on NL10 with Q,Q

      I can say quite confidently say it's the worst bit of advise I've ever been given. Everytime I have been re-raised pre & shoved I've been against K,K or A,A and lost my stack. If I'd not listened to these guys I'd have folded the majority of the time, but in my head I always think I have to learn from the Pros.

      These guys speak about how loose these games are, with '30%+ seeing the flop. I don't think they've played a NL10 game in 5 years, I play on iPoker and we're looking at 5%-20% most of the time. In my experience these guys are tight & don't stack off easily.

      I've been handed A,A / K,K 50+ times according to Pokertracker and stacked my opponant twice pre-flop. Ironically both times they've held Q,Q and I've never been called with less.

      I'm going to buy 'Beating the micros' tomorrow. The e-book for $19.99. It's just annoying how my experience of the micros is so different to the 'Pros' offering advise.

      Do you guys think I'm being unfair or agree? Thanks.
  • 27 replies
    • SryImNoob
      SryImNoob
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 4,678
      i think it depend:P

      Honestly yes QQ get in often vs AA / KK but against AK sometimes too so against a range that contain only AA KK AK your at 40/60 (with dead money + some time they spazz AQ JJ TT its an ev+ move).

      Obv if the fish is 92/1 and 3bet .00001%of time on 1mirrion hands you shouldnt go broke with your QQ...

      hope it help
    • asteele82
      asteele82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2012 Posts: 12
      Is there a way I can search Pokertracker for pre-flop all ins? I can't recall a time someone called off 100 BB's with A,K pre unless against a maniac possibly.
    • sileekhunt
      sileekhunt
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.06.2010 Posts: 286
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8mZM4RJqc

      maybe modify that ^ (i use hold manager & could do it there)

      I listen to alot of advice but really it comes down to what you feel is correct - we can't all play the same.

      I certainly used to stack off pre w QQ in many situations - most likely if I know villain stacks off w AK.
    • SryImNoob
      SryImNoob
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 4,678
      u dont 3bet/broke AK 100bb deep?
    • asteele82
      asteele82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2012 Posts: 12
      Thank you, I think this will be really useful in future!

      Two hands all in as I remembered. K,K vs Q,Q 80% equity and I lose $7 :/
      Second was A,A which I won but I cannot find an option to see opponants hole cards. I remember them being Q,Q again. I won $10 this time.

      Looking at these stats, A,A 29 times, raised/re-raise 100% WTSD 63% won 57% ouch ^^ $6 profit overall.

      Kings far better $24 profit.

      But meh. I dont think NL10 players are as loose pre-flop as people seem to think.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Originally posted by SryImNoob
      u dont 3bet/broke AK 100bb deep?
      Why would you do that ? If you do that being utg vs a nit in FR your pretty much getting it in vs KK+ 95% of the time. There are ppl you can fold KK against playing lets say nl100 FR zoom and AK is pretty much a snap fold or almost always a flat pre.

      On the other hand playing HU and getting AK feels like a stone cold nuts. Its all situation/player dependent more so then being limit dependent.

      Don't listen to the guys telling you that you always have to do something. It always depends. Stacking off preflop really isnt that much limit dependent, but more so player dependent and it just comes down to stats.

      As for good players giving you bad advice im 95% sure thats your fault. Just for example the first hand currently posted on evaluation forum.

      NL10 J9s

      I mean honestly wtf does this guy expect? He didn't post a hand, he posted a random hand history. He didn't include any stats or game dynamics, his image or his opponents image, he didn't even stated weather the opponent is a reg, fish or a nit or a crazy lag. He didnt even bother to write which street his interested in.

      Nobody can give him a helpful answer or should even try helping him given he put 0 effort into posting that hand with no information what so ever. He was to lazy to even ask a question lol.

      Not saying you post your hands like that but 95% of low stakes hand are posted this way.
    • clandestineAl
      clandestineAl
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.06.2010 Posts: 569
      Originally posted by MatejM47

      Don't listen to the guys telling you that you always have to do something. It always depends. Stacking off preflop really isnt that much limit dependent, but more so player dependent and it just comes down to stats.

      So true. The whole idea about poker is not doing the same thing every time you get one type of hand. You are playing the man not your own cards. I don't use stats but I can tell from how someone plays if my queens are going to be in good shape against them.
    • Musematte
      Musematte
      Bronze
      Joined: 28.05.2012 Posts: 89
      95% of low stakes hand are posted this way


      Well checked 10 hands and this was the only hand posted this way :f_p:
      Sure every hand isn't detailed but there are atleast some stats or question.

      Also i dont go all-in with QQ on NL2, only when i know the player is very loose. Players who go all-in with any two come around sometimes and then its ok to do go allin with any pair or ace. It all depends.
    • MatejM47
      MatejM47
      Black
      Joined: 21.01.2010 Posts: 1,193
      Yeah maybe i was a bit harsh :) But still there usually isn't enough info if any and if there is its usually only stats. Or the questions asked are to general. Like should i stack off with QQ? The general answer is yes you should, but it still depends on the situation, game flow agro opponents or tilted opponent or w/e. There's just a tons of little stuff that goes into a decision at higher lvls that low limit player either dont include or don't have(not enough history due to large player pool)
    • asteele82
      asteele82
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.07.2012 Posts: 12
      Maybe I didn't give enough stats on my opponents, I didn't have many hands on them that's for sure. But still their all attitude was 'Donks on that level call a shove with any two face cards & you'll always be a loser if you don't shove Queens pre'. One of the guys actually said this..

      My moan was more to do with the fact it's difficult to filter the good advice from the bad. Even players with 1000's of posts are sometimes wrong when it comes to advising newer players. It's clear when they speak about how lose pre-flop these tables are.

      Maybe they've been out of the micros so long they've lost touch & in their day NL10 was full of fish that shoved their A,Q, J,J or re-raised K,Q I'm not sure. It's just annoying to spend hours reading rubbish until you find genuinely helpful advice :(
    • ains21
      ains21
      Bronze
      Joined: 04.06.2011 Posts: 303
      Originally posted by asteele82
      Maybe I didn't give enough stats on my opponents, I didn't have many hands on them that's for sure. But still their all attitude was 'Donks on that level call a shove with any two face cards & you'll always be a loser if you don't shove Queens pre'. One of the guys actually said this..

      My moan was more to do with the fact it's difficult to filter the good advice from the bad. Even players with 1000's of posts are sometimes wrong when it comes to advising newer players. It's clear when they speak about how lose pre-flop these tables are.

      Maybe they've been out of the micros so long they've lost touch & in their day NL10 was full of fish that shoved their A,Q, J,J or re-raised K,Q I'm not sure. It's just annoying to spend hours reading rubbish until you find genuinely helpful advice :(
      It always depends on the players at the table. Stop trying to think in terms of rules on how you should and shouldn't play full stop (i.e. always shove QQ PF). For example, if you saw some guy shoving KJo and generally playing like a maniac in most hands, you should be happy to get it in with QQ. On the other hand, if the guy plays 10% of hands and is generally passive, feel free to lay down QQ pre-flop if he 4 bets. You just have to adapt to the players at the table -- if you understood that, you'd understand that you should never take "do x in limit y" at face value, and you wouldn't have to make posts like this complaining about bad advice.
    • FaTDoGBG
      FaTDoGBG
      Bronze
      Joined: 09.03.2009 Posts: 139
      You are correct about semi pros or pros giving advice, they haven't played micros for a long time. The internet is full of information these days and to be honest there are exceptionally good players on NL2, 5 and 10. Most of the players have basic skills and don't push all in with any two. The fish is not it used to be now... But hey, that's the idea of poker, adjust and crush the limits. The magic of the cash games is that every hand is unique and should be played according to many factors like image, position, stacks, history, stats and so on. You can't just go all in with QQ cuz it's QQ :)
    • SryImNoob
      SryImNoob
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.12.2009 Posts: 4,678
      Originally posted by MatejM47
      Originally posted by SryImNoob
      u dont 3bet/broke AK 100bb deep?
      Why would you do that ? If you do that being utg vs a nit in FR your pretty much getting it in vs KK+ 95% of the time. There are ppl you can fold KK against playing lets say nl100 FR zoom and AK is pretty much a snap fold or almost always a flat pre.

      On the other hand playing HU and getting AK feels like a stone cold nuts. Its all situation/player dependent more so then being limit dependent.

      Don't listen to the guys telling you that you always have to do something. It always depends. Stacking off preflop really isnt that much limit dependent, but more so player dependent and it just comes down to stats.

      As for good players giving you bad advice im 95% sure thats your fault. Just for example the first hand currently posted on evaluation forum.

      NL10 J9s

      I mean honestly wtf does this guy expect? He didn't post a hand, he posted a random hand history. He didn't include any stats or game dynamics, his image or his opponents image, he didn't even stated weather the opponent is a reg, fish or a nit or a crazy lag. He didnt even bother to write which street his interested in.

      Nobody can give him a helpful answer or should even try helping him given he put 0 effort into posting that hand with no information what so ever. He was to lazy to even ask a question lol.

      Not saying you post your hands like that but 95% of low stakes hand are posted this way.
      Originally posted by SryImNoob
      i think it depend:P

      Honestly yes QQ get in often vs AA / KK but against AK sometimes too so against a range that contain only AA KK AK your at 40/60 (with dead money + some time they spazz AQ JJ TT its an ev+ move).

      Obv if the fish is 92/1 and 3bet .00001%of time on 1mirrion hands you shouldnt go broke with your QQ...

      hope it help
    • holmeboy
      holmeboy
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2010 Posts: 1,336
      I asked TwiceT about a 3b scenario I saw on a different site and his answer was:

      Originally posted by TwiceT
      depends soooo much on :
      - who is vilain, what's his overall gameplan (stats?)
      - who is hero, what's his overall gameplan (stats?)
      - how is hero perceived by villain?
      - 3b ranges of hero (stats ... merged vs polarized, game-flow dependent?)
      - 3b calling ranges of villain combined with his 4b range
      - villain's WWSF % and WTS %
      So like MatejM47 said everything is so dependant on Villain. There are no rules about how you should always stack off w/QQ preflop.

      If you look in the strategy section there are some articles about playing AK/QQ on lower limits that might be worth a look if your struggling on how to play them.
    • Vygantas82
      Vygantas82
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2010 Posts: 361
      In my experience over the passed few weeks/months this is as far from the truth as possible. I posted one hand some time ago when I folded Q,Q pre to an all-in raise and call and was called a fish by everyone that responded, and that I should always get it in pre-flop on NL10 with Q,Q


      Yet another idiotic rule of thumb. pushing/calling all in QQ/AK preflop in NL 10 you only feed poker room with rake and growing your own dispersion. to move/call all in preflop QQ/AK or worse you should know your opp is complete idiot or you have some special dinamics. Listen only advices of those people that have wining records in that limit.
    • Phgrinder
      Phgrinder
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.02.2009 Posts: 1,003
      if people fold to your AA / KK 3bets that means your not betting enough,

      if you 3bet and only face action from AA / KK that means your not 3betting enough.

      learn to 3bet fold and your opponents will open up their range and you will be amazed at the range of hands they will / spazz / stack off with to your new aggressive image.
    • Vygantas82
      Vygantas82
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.04.2010 Posts: 361
      learn to 3bet fold and your opponents will open up their range and you will be amazed at the range of hands they will / spazz / stack off with to your new aggressive image.
      if you play nl 100. At nl10 not many players care about your table image. Actually nobody cares if to be honest. They will only play back at you with premium holding themselves. God players beat this limit very quickly with simple ABC poker and do not hold up there for longer time. there is no big diffrence between nl2,5,10 even nl 20-25. Just table select. key of nl10 is simple ABC poker/table select. other then that is just leads to bigger variance and feeding poker room with rake. proven long time ago. read silver articles (even thougt there is many bullshit in them) but still there is enough info for those smallest stakes to beat
    • NightFrostaSS
      NightFrostaSS
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.10.2008 Posts: 5,255
      When I was just in the beginning of learning the game and moving up through those stakes you've mentioned I also disagreed with a lot of advices given by other guys and some hand judges as well. That's fine, have your opinion, but defend it logically and keep the open mind to logical argumentation by others and you'll be fine.

      Majority isn't alw right.
    • farbwenz
      farbwenz
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.01.2010 Posts: 359
      why should someone give you the correct answer?

      - he wants you to climb up the limit, so that he has more new players to get money from (meaning that he currently does not play your limit and does not know for 100% sure)

      - he is on the same limit and wants to know for himself (meaning that he is not 100% sure)

      - he is on a lower limit and wants to see whether he has what it takes to climb the limits (meaning he is not 100% sure)

      - he belongs to Pokerstrategy.com and has financial interest in your good play(in this case he is usually 100% sure)

      - he is just a nice person, and teaches you how to play even though it is a -EV spot for himself


      Luckily, most answers seem to fall into the last 2 categories, but I would never solely rely on a possible opponent's opinion :)
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