Erm, how do I explain...

    • ratje2000
      ratje2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2010 Posts: 36
      A friend of mine recently started playing poker, and I'm teaching him the basics a bit. He's been playing MTT's only so far, and he's really talented.

      However, he is very very very negative about his luck. Basically he says: I'll make it into the money, sure, but I'll never win a tournament with 100+ players, because I just don't have enough luck. Even if I play a thousand times, I will have bad luck a thousand times. I will just never get some big money in such tournaments.

      Now, I know that this is a wrong mindset, and that poker isn't abolut luck but about getting the odds in your favour. You guys know that as well. The problem is, I've explained this to him for literally tens of times, and still he keeps saying he's just too unlucky and he could never play good.

      He thinks that if he'll start cashgaming, he'll lose 20 all-in's in a row and lose everything because he has so much bad luck. Basically, he plays really well, but he's just too afraid to take some risk. He gets far in tournaments because he's great at the (very tight) start. However, he maintains this very tight play until the very end of the tournament, and he's just too afraid to shove in some chips to the pot. Even when playing for the smallest amounts of money. He's not afraid to lose his money, he's just afraid of being kicked out of the tourney.

      And the worst part is: I've been checking his stats, and he doesn't even have any bad luck. His win rates per cards are around average, there is nothing unusual. He gets in the money in most tournaments he plays, and I can't find any reason to assume he really does have bad luck.

      My question: How do I help him to get over this and to start improving his game? I'm really kind of out of ideas.

      Help?
  • 17 replies
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Let him get on PokerStrategy?
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      And by the way, in one of the videos they even say that there is no such thing as bad luck, there is only very poorly played hands. Bad luck is very very very rare thing.
    • pleno1
      pleno1
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 19.11.2010 Posts: 5,596
      Hey,

      Is poker a skill game? Absolutely!

      Is poker determined by luck in the short run? Absolutely!

      If you play as good as Phil Ivey at NL2 will you 100% make money tomorrow? Not definitely no.

      If you play as good as Phil Ivey for 12 months will you make money? Absolutely.

      Poker is all about getting to a high level and continuing to improve whilst understanding variance and overcoming it, just because he is talented doesn't make him a good player, he needs to overcome the psychological burden and realise that he is basically making a tonne of short term high variance investments that will eventually turn into a steady growth of profit, similarly to trading.

      Get him to make a thread on PokerStrategy, I'd be happy to speak with him.

      Good night
      Patrick
    • StrategyLofthouse
      StrategyLofthouse
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.01.2011 Posts: 43
      Make him understand that the end game in tournaments is different than playing at the beginning of a tournament with a big stack and small blinds.
      He will have to risk being knocked out at some point.
      If he keeps folding too much when the blinds are big he will forever just miss out on the money or cash a small amount without winning it.
    • ExternalUseOnly
      ExternalUseOnly
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.01.2010 Posts: 3,373
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Let him get on PokerStrategy?
      +1

      And make sure you tell him to write your username in the refer a friend box :)

      But yes you should get him to join us here, or maybe he's a member already and not active if so crack the whip and get him involved ;) get him reading some articles and watching a couple of vids then show him some blogs of some long time winners and show that it's not about luck in the long run.


      Enjoy your day
      Carl
    • ratje2000
      ratje2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2010 Posts: 36
      Hey everyone,

      Thanks for the replies so far. He is already a member of Pokerstrategy (and yes, he used my referral :s_biggrin: ). I had him read the articles on MTT's and the difference between the early phase and the later stages of the tournament. What it comes down to is: He thinks he knows better. =/

      I've explained to him that luck in the end always equals out when the sample sizes grow. All he replied was: You'll see, my luck is different.

      He's a really good friend, so I really want to help him, but he's just so stubborn. *sigh*

      I wouldn't ask here for help if it wasn't for the fact that I'm really running out of ideas :(
    • DeMarcohsp
      DeMarcohsp
      Bronze
      Joined: 15.06.2010 Posts: 1,975
      There is a section here on psychology as well. And always a thread where Jared Tendler answers, lots of good info in there as well.
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      Bitch slap him and tell him to turn his EGO level down a bit, and take his time to listen to professional advice here on PS. Patience is success.
    • ratje2000
      ratje2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2010 Posts: 36
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      Bitch slap him
      Aye, will do sir! :f_cool:
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,338
      ego and bad bankroll management are what stops many people from being good players. and ironically the two often go hand in hand. im not a tourney player, but i doubt it's possible to make it ITM in every tourney you play. sooner or later he will have to learn that poker is just as much about losing as it is winning.

      with poker you often have to learn yourself and learn the hard way - i doubt any amount of reasoning on your part will get him to work on his game. he has to do it himself and actually want to do it.

      if you have directed him to pokerstrategy, then he has a wealth of knowledge at his fingertips. your job is done! hopefully he chooses to use the knowledge here :)
    • Fagin
      Fagin
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.05.2008 Posts: 544
      And make sure you tell him to write your username in the refer a friend box :)
      I got a friend to do this and despite my contacting support he "was not referred" by me!

      I would advise getting anybody to use a link just not put your name in the box as this does not work and they will not count as having being referred by you.
    • dangermowse
      dangermowse
      Silver
      Joined: 24.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      And by the way, in one of the videos they even say that there is no such thing as bad luck, there is only very poorly played hands. Bad luck is very very very rare thing.
      lol what is this?


      Is poker determined by luck in the short run? Absolutely!

      Can the short run be 10-20k games? ABSOFKNLUTELY!!!
    • Rihard4a
      Rihard4a
      Gold
      Joined: 08.09.2010 Posts: 2,038
      You decide whether you are lucky or not, by making decisions. :)
    • Ufonautas
      Ufonautas
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.07.2012 Posts: 32
      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      You decide whether you are lucky or not, by making decisions. :)
      ^ THIS.
    • justkyle88
      justkyle88
      Bronze
      Joined: 07.05.2008 Posts: 7,596
      Show him this video :f_thumbsup:

      The Mental Game: Variance in Poker

      Regards,

      Kyle.
    • ratje2000
      ratje2000
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.06.2010 Posts: 36
      Thanks everyone. Especially Kyle and DrDunne: great advise!
    • dangermowse
      dangermowse
      Silver
      Joined: 24.10.2010 Posts: 1,185
      Yeh, this...

      Originally posted by Rihard4a
      You decide whether you are lucky or not, by making decisions. :)
      doesn't negate this...



      Can the short run be 10-20k games? ABSOFKNLUTELY!!!
      in anyway at all.

      (that is if it was in reply to me, if not then forget I spoke) ;)